Fleck 9100 and well gpm questions

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by boudreaux, Jun 30, 2010.

  1. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

    Messages:
    448
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    That is your opinion and not a fact.

    This comment is a prime example why you are in continual conflict with other posters--you can't (or won't) differentiate between your opinions and facts.

    You seem to think anything you post is a fact just because you post it. THAT IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE!!!

    If your opinions differ from opinions offered by other posters you attack and bash the other posters.

    I agree with Wally's observation that you are the one causing problems here. You are apparently incapable of recognizing that there are other valid views. You repeatedly attack and bash others who post opinions that don't agree with your views.
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2010
  2. nhmaster3015

    nhmaster3015 Master Plumber

    Messages:
    836
    Location:
    The granite state
    Bob, let it go. It's a proven waste of time and effort.
  3. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Man you just keep digging yourself deeper.

    Clack only sells large quantities at wholesale to their contracted OEM/Distributors.

    Clack's distributors are OEMs (original equipment manufacturers), in this case softeners, they 'manufacture a softener which includes a Clack componet part, the control valve. The OEM/Distributor is NOT a DEALER for Clack or anyone else. 99% of them do not sell retail; wholesale only by law.

    They, the OEM/Distributor, sells to their dealers; dealers such as me and all other internet or local dealers; including franchisees, exclusive territory and independent dealers.

    Nope, I did not mention him or anyone else.

    Read this post and tell me what you call it if not a personal attack. Everything you have said is about me personally; not a single mention of anything important to the OP. Same in all of your other posts in this and most threads in this forum.

    So you think my posting those articles about sizing softeners is arguing... I can see why.

    Well known and popular and all powerful huh. And here I've been thinking the same about you and how you flit from one subject to another with the attention span of a gnat reveling in your false sense of grandeur while scheming and blaming everything on me.

    Those parts of articles I posted went right over your head and I'm sorry about that but Bob is wrong about 8 gpm/cuft and something about control valve flow rate pressure loss. I.E. his 8 gpm/cuft in a 2.0 cuft softener (16 gpm) is going to allow serious hardness leakage (over 1 gpg) because 16 gpm is way over the constant SFR gpm of 2.0 cuft of any kind of resin. And the OP talking about buying a twin tank softener should not believe 16 gpm per tank. You can get into that in the articles where Chub talks about bed depths and such.

    Not reading my posts is a great idea, y'all will feel better but listen, what I say as far as sizing equipment, that's not an opinion, that is accurate and free information. Now I understand your not being able to follow it but still, put the adult beverages down and you could learn something or don't read my posts, it's your choice.
  4. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    I can prove everything I say and you will still disagree, as you have in this thread and the articles I posted. You haven't discussed anything in them. Now my opinion of why is because they prove you wrong and you won't admit it.

    And at the same time, I have many years of extensive experience in sizing and servicing thousands of softeners for customers and so far, you seem to have not sold the first one yet.

    Valid "views" or "opinions"... Then I suggest you and others start posting facts. Facts that relate to high salt and water efficiency. Or how a twin tank softener is more efficient than a two tank softener with the same volume and type of resin and salt dose. or how to arrive at the constant SFR of a softener. You have disagreed with me on all of those subjects but never post facts.

    You give your opinion or view but, what are they based on really, DO YOU SELL SOFTENERS? Have you sold and serviced softeners for customers? Or are you just someone with one and only opinions and views?

    Such as, where you get 8 gpm per cuft for SFR and that bed depth isn't critical to the SFR of a softener. Or how your opinion of the info on a control valve spec sheet is incorrect because it is incomplete.

    How about some facts about those subjects Bob.
  5. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

    Messages:
    448
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    So far as I know there is no law that says a Clack OEM/Distributor can sell wholesale only.

    I challenge you to provide a specific legal citation to back up your post.

    In the absence of a specific citation we will have to conclude this is just another bit of hot air and misinformation.
  6. nhmaster3015

    nhmaster3015 Master Plumber

    Messages:
    836
    Location:
    The granite state
    And now you are accusing me of drinking, nice. Thanks but no, I can learn nothing about sizing from you, drink or no drink. Rember, it is only you that asserts your information is accurate, though it is free LOL
  7. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Maybe I should have said state or federal regs but... you not believing me proves you simply don't know how businesses do business.

    LOL, just yesterday a guy 10 miles from an OEM/Distributor's location (they shipped his softener to him) called me asking if he could go in and buy a replacement for a Clack plumbing connector elbow he cross threaded.

    I gave him the phone number and told him to call and ask for the manager Norm and if they sell retail which as far as I know they couldn't. He called and he was informed that they can not sell retail but if I placed the order and it showed up on his terminal before closing time he was welcome to come pick the part up, which I did, the home office entered the order and he picked up the part on his way home from work at 3:something.

    Now you ask for "a specific citation" which you know I can't produce another company's "citation" and there is no "citation", it is the way the company was set up originally with the filings with the states they were going to do business in and the FTC IIRC, and that's the reason why you asked for "a specific citation".

    I could give you the phone number and contact name at that location but I don't think I will, I'll let you assume you're right and I'm wrong.

    I could give you my customer's name and phone but I don't think I'll do that either but again you're wrong Bob, most/many OEM/Distributors of water treatment equipment are not allowed to sell retail because they aren't set up to, usually because they chose not to and thereby due to state regs. And that is why they are extremely difficult to impossible to find in phone books. They only advertise to dealers and mostly only in our industry specific magazines or by direct mail to established dealers they can find in yellow pages etc..

    So don't expect any direct mail from any anytime soon Bob.
  8. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

    Messages:
    448
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    So far as I know there is no federal or state regulation that says a Clack OEM/Distributor can sell wholesale only.

    I challenge you to provide a specific legal citation to back up your post.

    In the absence of a specific citation we will have to conclude this is just another bit of hot air and misinformation.

    As to your (incorrect) assertion that I don't know how business is done--you don't know anything about my background, education and experience and are in no position to make statements about what I know or don't know.

    But I will tell you that I believe that I know a substantial amount more about the law and regulations and how businesses do business than you have demonstrated that you know.
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2010
  9. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Bob I fully agree that you you don't know anything about this. As I said it depends on how the business was set up originally with government entities.

    Last winter in Quartzite AZ we went into a place that uses bulk material to make sun screens/shading for RVs, house porches etc.. We wanted pieces for inside our large high driver and passenger windows in our motor home and for across the top of the two very large front windows to be used instead of our sun visors.

    We spent maybe 20 minutes selecting the material from a number of qualities/types/weights and colors and finally gave the lady (the owner) our measurements and were told they couldn't make the pieces or sell the material that way because the state of AZ and the town of Quartzite did not allow them to make that style screening or sell that type of screening.

    They found out about this when someone from the local or state government showed up 3+ years ago which led to them having to pay a hefty fine that damned near put them out of business. They have been struggling to stay in business since then. They had not been following regs/rules etc. for 10 years. They are only allowed to manufacture the externally mounted and removable full frontal pieces that cover the very large front windows or both windows with one piece or, the same style for side windows or a single large piece for under awnings on RVs or overhangs on houses etc..
  10. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

    Messages:
    448
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    It is nice that you can agree with yourself because you are the only one who sees it that way. You continue to demonstrate your ignorance about the law, state regulations, and how business does business by posting extraneous information about how states regulate motor vehicles when the subject is the sale of water softeners.

    I realize you probably aren't able to comprehend the above comments but I wanted to post them for those who can. It is unfortunate that it is not possible to have a reasonable discussion with you but you are so certain that what ever you think or believe is the righteous truth that you simply can't see that you are frequently wrong, misinformed, or simply don't understand things.

    The current demonstration of your condition is the Clack action in telling its OEM/Distributors to stop sales to internet sellers (like you) who did not meet certain conditions. This was done pursuant to the "Control Valve Agreement" according to the Clack memo you posted. The "Control Valve Agreement" is a matter between Clack and it's OEM/Distributors. It is not the result of or pursuant to any state or federal law or regulation.
  11. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    No the subject is not the sale of softeners or regulation of motor vehicles.

    It is about whether an OEM/Distributor wholesale business also sells those same products at retail to end user/consumer customers. The business could be selling any legal products, not just softeners or their component parts.

    The physical location of the business may preclude retail sales, especially if the business originally structured itself as a non retail business. Or the building/location could be in a local government regulated nonretail area or not permitted for retail sales. Or that the business does not have a state retail sales license. It's that simple Bob.

    There you are again with the personal put down Bob. How about you Report that.

    I certainly didn't say it was but talk about extraneous information; what does Clack have to do with the subject? You say you have seen the Clack communications, yet you still don't understand that they stopped ALL internet sales/dealers, not some of the internet sales/dealers, all of them Bob, every one of us but...

    You will probably call this extraneous info too but for others reading this, the local, state and federal governments categorize all businesses and they also regulate all businesses. All businesses when founded must come up with a category code number and report it to local, state and federal government agencies/departments, such as IIRC the state Department of Revenue and the federal IRS; possibly the FTC also. In a quick search for business codes I found this for some retailers from
    http://www.naicscode.com/Search/MoreNAICSDetail.asp?N=4543

    4543 Direct Selling Establishments - 2007 NAICS Code Description See Also
    Description
    This industry group comprises establishments primarily engaged in nonstore retailing (except electronic, mail-order, or vending machine sales). These establishments typically go to the customers' location rather than the customer coming to them (e.g., door-to-door sales, home parties). Examples of establishments in this industry are home delivery newspaper routes; home delivery of heating oil, liquefied petroleum (LP) gas, and other fuels; locker meat provisioners; frozen food and freezer plan providers; coffee-break services providers; and bottled water or water softener services.

    See Also
    Parent Sectors of 4543:
    45 - Retail Trade
    454 - Nonstore Retailers
    Sub-Sectors of 4543:
    45431 - Fuel Dealers
    45439 - Other Direct Selling Establishments

    This is some wholesalers from
    http://www.naicscode.com/Search/MoreNAICSDetail.asp?N=425110#AlsoCalled

    Description of some retailers.
    The buying of goods for resale is a characteristic of retail trade establishments that particularly distinguishes them from establishments in the agriculture, manufacturing, and construction industries. For example, farms that sell their products at or from the point of production are not classified in retail, but rather in agriculture. Similarly, establishments that both manufacture and sell their products to the general public are not classified in retail, but rather in manufacturing. However, establishments that engage in processing activities incidental to retailing are classified in retail. This includes establishments, such as optical goods stores that do in-store grinding of lenses, and meat and seafood markets.

    More descriptions of wholesalers from
    http://www.naicscode.com/Search/MoreNAICSDetail.asp?N=42.

    The Sector as a Whole

    The Wholesale Trade sector comprises establishments engaged in wholesaling merchandise, generally without transformation, and rendering services incidental to the sale of merchandise. The merchandise described in this sector includes the outputs of agriculture, mining, manufacturing, and certain information industries, such as publishing.

    The wholesaling process is an intermediate step in the distribution of merchandise. Wholesalers are organized to sell or arrange the purchase or sale of (a) goods for resale (i.e., goods sold to other wholesalers or retailers), (b) capital or durable nonconsumer goods, and (c) raw and intermediate materials and supplies used in production.

    Wholesalers sell merchandise to other businesses and normally operate from a warehouse or office. These warehouses and offices are characterized by having little or no display of merchandise. In addition, neither the design nor the location of the premises is intended to solicit walk-in traffic. Wholesalers do not normally use advertising directed to the general public. Customers are generally reached initially via telephone, in-person marketing, or by specialized advertising that may include Internet and other electronic means. Follow-up orders are either vendor-initiated or client-initiated, generally based on previous sales, and typically exhibit strong ties between sellers and buyers. In fact, transactions are often conducted between wholesalers and clients that have long-standing business relationships.

    This sector comprises two main types of wholesalers: merchant wholesalers that sell goods on their own account and business to business electronic markets, agents, and brokers that arrange sales and purchases for others generally for a commission or fee.

    1. Establishments that sell goods on their own account are known as wholesale merchants, distributors, jobbers, drop shippers, and import/export merchants. Also included as wholesale merchants are sales offices and sales branches (but not retail stores) maintained by manufacturing, refining, or mining enterprises apart from their plants or mines for the purpose of marketing their products. Merchant wholesale establishments typically maintain their own warehouse, where they receive and handle goods for their customers. Goods are generally sold without transformation, but may include integral functions, such as sorting, packaging, labeling, and other marketing services.
    2. Establishments arranging for the purchase or sale of goods owned by others or purchasing goods, generally on a commission basis are known as business to business electronic markets, agents and brokers, commission merchants, import/export agents and brokers, auction companies, and manufacturers' representatives. These establishments operate from offices and generally do not own or handle the goods they sell.
    Some wholesale establishments may be connected with a single manufacturer and promote and sell the particular manufacturers' products to a wide range of other wholesalers or retailers. Other wholesalers may be connected to a retail chain, or limited number of retail chains, and only provide a variety of products needed by that particular retail operation(s). These wholesalers may obtain the products from a wide range of manufacturers. Still other wholesalers may not take title to the goods, but act as agents and brokers for a commission.

    Although, in general, wholesaling normally denotes sales in large volumes, durable nonconsumer goods may be sold in single units. Sales of capital or durable nonconsumer goods used in the production of goods and services, such as farm machinery, medium and heavy duty trucks, and industrial machinery, are always included in wholesale trade.
  12. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

    Messages:
    448
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    You are certainly correct about it being extraneous information. I think the post must be a new record for the longest extraneous post on this site.

    By the way--how long are you going to continue to say you sell Clack CS control valves? Didn't you post that you were out of that business (because Clack policies put you out of the business) as of the middle of June? Just another example of the misinformation you post.
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2010
  13. boudreaux

    boudreaux New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Thank you guys for the info. on the sizing, gpm, service flow, etc.

    I met with two local water treatment company over the past few days. One was a Fleck dealer the other was a Kinetico dealer. Both had 8 grains for hardness and 2-3 ppm for iron. The Fleck dealer recommended the Fleck 9500sxt with 2cuft resin for both tanks and the Kinetico dealer recommended the CP213s od which has 2.5cuft in both tanks. The Kinetico dealer also installs a sediment filter before the softener. I let them know my intentions is not to have iron stains from irrigation. They both said that they have installed many systems with the said water softeners and the draw back is the salt usage. I did ask them about the salt killing the grass, trees and shubs. One responded that it would be very minimal amounts of salt based on my hardness and iron levels and that the normal rainfall would also be diluting it. The other said I could use the pricer potassium chloride during the irrigation seasons and switch to sodium chloride during off season, but both have not seen or heard of trees or shrubs dying.

    So if we are looking just at the cuft of resin and I have a flow rate of 20.4 gpm well going thru the softener, wouldn't the Fleck 9500sxt with 2 cuft resin per tank have leakage thru it based on Bob999 8gpm/cuft or Gary Slusser's web site softener sizing info.?

    I hope to make a decision on what to do by this week. Thanks in advance to all your comments.

    Boudreaux
  14. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    I know what you mean but for clarification, Fleck has no dealers so he is an independent dealer (the best kind).

    The 2.0' has a 12 gpm constant SFR and the 2.5 has 18 gpm. And IMO you need more resin for a peak demand of 20+ gpm; especially with 3 ppm of iron.

    The Kinetico OD means you get water through both tanks until one tank goes into regeneration, which is always while you are using water. So, the Kinetico is over sized on one end but undersized when a tank regenerates plus... the drain line flow gpm is subtracted from the SFR of the single tank that you get water from until the regeneration is finished. Of course the prefilter has a pressure loss, that increases the more water run through it and at 20 gpm and 3 ppm iron it won't take long, so both figures will be somewhat reduced and you won't like the frequency o cartridge replacement irrigation will cause; or the cost of that unless you buy cartridges by the case.

    I would not go with Kinetico for a number of reasons like their prefilter requirement, the expense and being proprietary/only one dealer for parts and service.

    BTW, if you had sufficient rain to flush the sodium down past the plant roots, you wouldn't be irrigating, right? [/QUOTE]
  15. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

    Messages:
    448
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    I don't recommend using softened water for irrigation. I believe it will cause damage to your plants/grass over time. I think you should go with an iron filter for irrigation only where staining is an issue. If your pH is low it is possible that an acid neutralizing filter would remove enough iron that staining would not be a significant problem. Altermatively a greensand plus filter, as an example, could be used--and use untreated water in areas where staining is not an issue. Another approach would be to use drip irrigation for plants in areas where staining is an issue.

    As to the size of resin tanks I think 2 cubic foot is two small--if you really want to size the system based on a flow of 20+ gpm I recommd a 3 cubic foot tank (per tank if a two tank system).

    The Kinetco OD system uses both tanks at the same tank during peak flows but for prolonged usage will almost certainly go into regeneration and then your usable flow will be dramatically reduced. I think you would be much better off with the Fleck 9500 for a design flow rate of 20+ gpm.
  16. boudreaux

    boudreaux New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Thank you Gary Slusser and Bob999 for taking the time to reply back.

    You both have confirmed my concerns with the undersized resin tanks, but did not realize that the Kinetico would have the pressure loss issue. I was already leaning towards the Kinetico model as it was 0.5cuft greater in each tank plus it was considerably priced less than the Fleck. That puts a halt in the decision process as they were the two local water treatment company.

    Bob999, thanks for the info on the iron filter. Both water treatment company did not recommend it as the pH was on the acidic side ~6.5 to 6.75 and that the backwash gpm needed would be greater than the gpm I would get through the tanks for the irrigation application.

    The irrigation will be separated into 2 zones, treated and untreated. Definitely going with the KCL for the Spring to Fall seasons and switch back to NaCL during the winter. To much time has been invested into the landscape and hardscape. I can't accept the iron stains.

    Thanks again,
    Boudreaux
  17. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    You want to be careful with Bob's advice here. You don't need an AN filter and if you got one large enough for 20+ gpm SFR, your pump and possibly the well probably couldn't backwash it. And if you treated half of your 20 gpm with one you may not be able to successfully backwash it either.

    The 9500 and its meter makes for an expensive control valve. How much does Kinetico and the independent guy want for their equipment?

    Did the guy with the 9500 suggest it or did you mention a 9500 and then he proposed it? See I do not agree that you need a 9500. Bob does not know how to read a control vale spec sheet.

    You should look into a polyphosphate feeder for just the irrigation water of the zone you want to treat. I would not use it on the house water; then I would use a softener for the house.
  18. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Yeah I know, I proved you wrong and now you can't bring yourself to admit it and you change the subject.

    Yes I am essentially out of business except for a stash of Clack WS1 valves I have under the bed. I may be planning to get more too, is that OK with you? So Bob no misinformation, simply put, you are wrong again as you were about wholesalers selling retail and proposing that boudreaux uses an AN filter for his iron problem in his irrigation water. And that he needs a 9500 valve. The list keeps getting biger'n bigger Bob....
  19. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

    Messages:
    448
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Actually you were the one who suggested the 9500 valve:

    As to your (incorrect) statement that I proposed the use of an AN filter--what I actually said was:

    " If your pH is low it is possible that an acid neutralizing filter would remove enough iron that staining would not be a significant problem." and I further said:

    "I think you should go with an iron filter for irrigation only where staining is an issue."

    As to your (incorrect) characterization "about wholesalers selling retail " I challenge you to provide the specific citation of what I posted along with how you believe it is wrong. I believe my posts have been correct and you are simply huffin and puffin as usual.
  20. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

    Messages:
    448
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    If you are separating the irrigation into two zones does the treated zone need to be 20+ gpm or will a lesser flow suffice? With lesser flow in the treated zone the feasible treatment options increase.

    If you decide to continue with the Fleck 9500 and want to consider DIY you can buy one online.

    Here is one source:

    http://www.ohiopurewaterco.com/shop/customer/home.php?cat=377

    If you have copper pipes I recommend you install an AN filter for your domestic water--the acidity levels you are reporting will degrade copper pipes over time.
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2010
Similar Threads: Fleck 9100
Forum Title Date
Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r Fleck 9100 problem Sep 10, 2013
Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r Fleck 9100 Timer ID Jan 13, 2011
Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r Fleck 9100 Useage Mete Problem Dec 22, 2010
Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r Had Fleck 9100 installed last January and my water is still brown Jul 22, 2010
Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r Fleck 9100 Metered Twin Tank Water Softener - 24,000 Grain Dec 11, 2009

Share This Page