electromagnetic water softener (descaler)

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by lifespeed, Nov 9, 2007.

  1. lifespeed

    lifespeed Member

    Messages:
    321
    Location:
    California
    Has anybody used these? There are a few different models available. While they don't remove calcium and magnesium compounds, they do keep them in solution while they go through your plumbing and out the showerhead, washing machine, etc. They are claimed to improve the effective 'softness' of the water due to this increased solubility.

    Here are a couple links electromagnetic and another that is electronic/catalytic.

    Before you dismiss it as nonsense, look at the government evaluation of this technology. It does appear the focus is on de-scaling of pipes that build up lime deposits, especially under heat. Kind of like the average home hot water heater . . .

    Lifespeed
  2. Go ahead and buy it, let us know how well it works.
  3. lifespeed

    lifespeed Member

    Messages:
    321
    Location:
    California
    Is that the best you can do? :rolleyes:

    Here is another unit, somewhat different technology. Causes the calcium carbonate to form into microscopic scale crystals rather than scale on your pipes. A colloidal suspension, if you will.
  4. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,129
    Location:
    New England
    I think what he was getting at is that none of these things seem to work. The mind plays big tricks on us, so you can't go by some people's perceptions. Buy it if you want to...take a water sample before it and after it and have them both analyzed. They'll both be identical.
  5. theelviscerator

    theelviscerator New Member

    Messages:
    72
    Location:
    Elkhart, IN
    Works as well as an ionic bracelet I imagine.
  6. lifespeed

    lifespeed Member

    Messages:
    321
    Location:
    California
    Template Assisted Crystallization

    I am aware of psychological effects. I agree the water won't be changed in that it will still contain Ca++ and Mg++ .

    However, I posted links that contain empirical results. The claim was not that the minerals are removed, but that they are crystallized "in suspension", rather than crystallizing on your pipes. The additional claim is that this will improve the annoying water hardness problems associated with spots on glass, soap scum and excessive soap use.

    I will also agree that there have been many bad actors in this field, giving it an overall bad reputation. I don't think that means that the concept is completely invalid. It is in use in industry today. Would that be the case were it smoke and mirrors?

    Lastly, a similar technology called "Template Assisted Crystallization" may be a better alternative to electromagnetic methods.

    I understand skepticism, but I also believe it is possible for technology to improve.

    Lifespeed
  7. lifespeed

    lifespeed Member

    Messages:
    321
    Location:
    California
    Another clever comment by someone who did not read the analysis of these methods, which were the subject of a thorough evaluation. Perhaps you can post an evaluation of your ionic bracelet in a peer-reviewed industry publication?
  8. Furd

    Furd Engineer

    Messages:
    446
    Location:
    Wet side of Washington State
  9. Bob NH

    Bob NH In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,317
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    Lifespeed; please tell us if you have any affiliation or financial interest in these products, or in the research associated with them. What are your connections in these things?

    I looked at the first link and didn't see anything that looked like a product. It was the kind of article that anyone could cite but there was no indication about how any product would relate to the article.

    Bob NH; PE
  10. lifespeed

    lifespeed Member

    Messages:
    321
    Location:
    California
    Some equipment manufacturers are listed on page 17 of the .PDF file. The evaluation was focused on the energy savings associated with improving boiler efficiency by virtue of removing the thermal barrier caused by scale buildup, hence the government interest. As an independent evaluation of the technology, I would not expect them to promote any specific brand. I would also expect that some products work, and some do not work much at all.

    As a homeowner and (possible) consumer I am interested in both the scale removal and hard-water mitigation aspects. I don't sell them.


  11. Uuuhm....yes. You're using big words and producing a ton of outlinks to other sites to debate what you already know has substantial opposition.


    I've answered this question too many times on the net; all of them want to debate their validity and my reference points come straight from the top; those qualified as experts that know water treatment best.....


    Not the gooooooogle and yahoo search engine knowledge-based informants.


    Cheeseburger, fries, extra salt and ketchup but I must have a diet coke.
  12. SteveW

    SteveW DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,052
    Location:
    Omaha, NE

    Admittedly, it's been many years since I took a chemistry class, but the first reference ("electromagnetic") in particular strikes me as pseudo-scientific claptrap.

    Can anyone else make heads or tails of the "information" in that link?
  13. lifespeed

    lifespeed Member

    Messages:
    321
    Location:
    California
    Opposition based on what? I agreed that some snake oil has been sold, and this is even acknowledged in the Federal Technology Alert.

    Furd posted a link to a "personal friend and water treatment consultant with over twenty years in the business of water treatment" who agrees it works.

    Despite the big words, I'm just trying to sort the snake oil from what really works. I suspect your blanket dismissal may not be 100% correct, but I am trying to figure it out.
  14. Bob NH

    Bob NH In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,317
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    Can you find anyone that even sells a system that utilizes the technology? I have never seen it for sale by a reputable company.

    NOBODY here is going to recommend it because it smells like snake oil.

    I think you should spend at least $10,000 on this thing including instrumentation to prove that it works.

    If you are going to make an investment in it, then you should write very tight specifications and get an iron-clad warranty. Then if it fails to meet the requirements, if the vendor is still in business, you may get your money back.

    I suspect that any price you get will be at least twice what a reputable vendor will sell you for a proven water softener.
  15. Herk

    Herk Plumber

    Messages:
    547
    Location:
    S.E. Idaho
    If anyone here actually believes that moving water perhaps 80 feet per second past a small magnet is going to significantly alter the composition of the water, I'm having a special sale on bridges today - two for one sale.
  16. I'm pretty sure Herk that he was an advertiser with a twist; came with tons of links and general "rebuttal" statements....unlike most computer generated scripts that normally don't offer that. Some don't even care, they just want site views to push them higher up on the search engines or that web crawlers pick up linked-to sites.


    On another front (to Terry) I've noticed that Vbulletin software is getting hammered hard with spamming on quite a few sites.

    I've proposed to one site since it's so bad that they need to build a front page or ghost page so that it takes 2 clicks, not one to get to the forum boards.

    This will alter the steps that a script bot has to take and therefore stop the process. Visual confirmation though will stop this problem immediately, unless of course you have an actual person pushing product.

    It's unusual to see Vbulletin with this problem all of a sudden...hopefully they are working on a patch to cure the problem quickly.
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2007
  17. Furd

    Furd Engineer

    Messages:
    446
    Location:
    Wet side of Washington State
    What my friend stated is that one particular system does work under some very specific circumstances in an industrial environment.

    I was actually involved with this experiment in its early stages but I retired before the conclusions were in. I and my friend would agree that using any kind of magnetic treatment to alleviate the hard water conditions in a residence is not likely to be cost effective nor of much use in combating the problems that will occur.
  18. Its a piece of junk dont buy into it....

    these magnetic water softening devices
    come and go every decade or two.....

    once everyone forgets how crummey they were 15 years ago they try to re-pacakge them and sell them to the next
    wave of suckers that come along....

    Perhoaps you are looking to buy into a Franchise on them??? Or perhaps you are looking to buy one....
    Either way you are gonna get taken for a ride.



    I have torn out about a dozen of them over the years
    almost everyone said that they never worked from the get go.


    they do not work because ---I had heard somewhere that
    it has to do with the volume of water or FLOW RATE passing the magnets....simply cannot soften it quick enough.

    does that answer the question....


    ask Gary Sussler what he thinks of them
  19. You tellem Furd!!!
  20. lifespeed

    lifespeed Member

    Messages:
    321
    Location:
    California
    I would have to agree that just slapping a permanent magnet on your water pipe, and relying on the velocity of the water to generate an electric field gradient is not likely to work.

    I think one of the more promising approaches is the "Template Assisted Crystallization". It doesn't use the electromagnetic approach, although the results are similar. Crystalization of the lime in solution rather than on the pipes.

    I must say, what a bunch of old dogs that can't learn new tricks. Although the abundance of scammer products clearly pollutes the pool.

    Lifespeed
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