DWV help me make it right! (CAD renderings included)

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & ' started by BeanAnimal, Nov 2, 2009.

  1. BeanAnimal

    BeanAnimal New Member

    Messages:
    21
    I am in need of some advice from the regular pros. This will be a bit long, but I want to make sure the details are clear.

    Background:
    We are in the process of remodeling a family member's 100+ year old home. The previous owners "DIY" remodeling projects are a disaster... Extension cords inside walls, unvented add on bathrooms, unvented kitchen, cut BEAMS and joists to route ducts, drains, wall cavities as DUCTS (not returns), etc.

    Anyway, we are correcting things as we go but the kitchen plumbing is next on the list. The images below show the proposed plumbing layout.

    EXISTING LAYOUT:
    The 4" ABS waste line branch I am going to tie into runs below the concrete floor and ties into the main soil stack and city sewer on the other side of the basement. Currently the 3rd floor apartment sink drains via a 1.5" vertical drain (vented through roof) to basement (not shown on my renderings) and ties into the END of this 4" run. The basement washer and laundry sink tie into that 1.5" apartment drain and are wet vented through the 3rd floor apartment. The END of the 4" run has a 90 bend that sends it up through the concrete floor.

    The kitchen (20 feet away, along the same wall) was tied into vertical stub of the 4" branch and was vented via a STUDOR under the sink.

    The kitchen plumbing has ALL been removed. The laundry plumbing WILL be removed, leaving the 3rd floor apartment kitchen sink and DW as the only fixture on that 1.5" vented drain that ties into the 4" branch.

    PROPOSED NEW PLUMBING:

    RED = NEW VENTS
    BLUE = NEW DRAIN/WASTE
    GREEN = EXISTING 4" WASTE
    YELLOW = FITTINGS

    1. I have extended a 2" ABS vent straight up-wards on the outside wall through the 2nd and 3rd floors to the roof. The location is the ONLY place it could go.
    2. I plan on tying a 3" horizontal to the 4" vertical stub that is protruding above the basement floor with a 4x4x3 Sanitary Tee.
    3. There will be a new 2" clothes washer standpipe on the new 3" horizontal
    4. There will be a new 1.5" (2" if needed) laundry sink on the new 3" horizontal
    5. There will be a new 1.5" aux sink on the new 3" horizontal (wine making room)
    6. The new kitchen 2" drain will tie into the new 3" horizontal
    7. The new 2" vent will tie into the kitchen sink trap AND continue down to the new 3" horizontal.

    The drain and vent MUST come through the kitchen cabinet floor, there is no way to route them through the joist space into the wall cavity! I will then route the vent through the back of the cabinet into the wall and up to the roof.

    [​IMG]
    A basic overview of the proposed plumbing with the framing shown.


    [​IMG]
    The proposed Tie-in to the 4" vertical stub.


    [​IMG]
    The kitchen sink are showing the framing. Vent comes through back of cabinet in two places. One to tie into sink drain and the second to extend past foundation into basement. The sink drain extends straight down.


    [​IMG]
    The proposed wine room sink area on the left and the laundry area along the back wall and right.


    QUESTIONS:

    • Can the COMBO WYES in the basement lay on their sides as shown for the two sinks?
    • Is this vented properly?
    • Is there anything else wrong?
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2009
  2. BeanAnimal

    BeanAnimal New Member

    Messages:
    21
    Without the framing:

    [​IMG]
    Same basic wide view, no framing.

    [​IMG]
    Same view as above withouth the framing.
  3. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

    Messages:
    3,189
    Location:
    S. Maine
    Neither of the drains on the bottom floor are properly vented.

    You will have to check with your local inspector about the combo's Some will pass them, some not
  4. Lakee911

    Lakee911 I&C Engineer (mostly WWTP)

    Messages:
    1,328
    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    What did you make your drawings with? Sketchup? SolidWorks?
  5. BeanAnimal

    BeanAnimal New Member

    Messages:
    21
    Does each need to be explicity tied to one of the RED vent lines, regardless of its distance? Both traps are less than 5' from the vents on the 3" horizontal.

    Would rolling them 22.5 (if I have the clearance) fix the issue regardless of the jurisdiction?


    Do see any other issues?

    Lakeee911:
    The drawings were done with AutoCad
  6. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

    Messages:
    3,189
    Location:
    S. Maine
    The distance is not the problem. the drain from the 2nd floor is negating the wet vent. You can not wer vent with fixtures above.
  7. BeanAnimal

    BeanAnimal New Member

    Messages:
    21
    Is this better?

    [​IMG]

    Now all three basement fixtures are directly vented. Do you see any other problems with the proposed DWV system?

    Does rolling the horizontal wye 22.5 and and using a 1/16 bend make it legal in all jurisdictions?
  8. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

    Messages:
    3,189
    Location:
    S. Maine
    taht pink horizontal pipe can not be horizontal until it is 6" above the flood level rim of the highest fixture served.

    Can't say if rolling them 22.5 will pass or not. it won't where I live
  9. Cass

    Cass Plumber

    Messages:
    5,980
    Location:
    Ohio
    The pink pipe is "flat" vented and not allowed like peter said...it must rise strait up until it is 6" over where the highest point the sink would over flow....like if you plugged the sink and let the water run till it over flowed on to the floor...
  10. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,537
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    dwv

    That "vent" from the 4" line up to the sink is absolutely worthless. It has no function whatsoever. The connection to the sink vent cannot be done that way unless the window is high enough so the horizontal section is higher than the countertop. The new vent configuration is "odd" but okay. Combos, are ALWAYS approved except for fixture connections without secondary vents. Whether they have to be rolled upwards or not depends on what they are being used for, not just because they are there.
  11. BeanAnimal

    BeanAnimal New Member

    Messages:
    21
    FLAT VENTS:

    The horizontal areas of the vent in the KITCHEN are only at 30" The kitchen sink is directly below a window and there is NO other place to route the plumbing. Obviously the flood rim of a kitchen sink is at around 36".

    1) Does that mean I need to build a loop vent into the under sink area? What a mess that would be!

    2) I can raise the Vent for the laundry sink becuase that plumbing will be inside of a framed wall.

    3) The large stainless drainboard sink (wine making area) is a different story. There is simply no way to raise the vent. IT MUST run under the long stainless drainboard sink. The wall behind the sink sits UNDER a BEAM and is full of steel floor jacks. (As I mentioned, the previous owner CUT at least 1/2 way through most of the joists in the area to run the previous plumbing and ducts). We had to install a beam to keep the floor from falling.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2009
  12. Cass

    Cass Plumber

    Messages:
    5,980
    Location:
    Ohio
    The T on the green pipe needs to be changed to a Y...
  13. BeanAnimal

    BeanAnimal New Member

    Messages:
    21
    So the transition from the HORIZONTAL 3" to the VERTICAL 4" need to be a Wye and not a Sanitary Tee?

    I thought with drains:

    H to V always took a Santee
    -and-
    V to H always took a Wye

    So this is one of "those" situations where the 3" has a secondary vent so the COMBO is approved?
  14. BeanAnimal

    BeanAnimal New Member

    Messages:
    21
    I think I have fixed the venting issues in the basement and worked around the beams and support columns. The "useless" vent was removed and the lower sinks vented in a more conventional manner without the use of a "flat" section below the flood rim of the sinks. The 4x4x3 Santee that connects the 3" horizontal the the 4" vertical was replaced with a 4x4x3 combo. Is this revision more acceptable?

    I still have the issue of the kitchen sink vent and am just not sure how to work around the window and foundation issues.

    I do appreciate all of the help, as this is a great opportunity to learn the correct way to do things.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2009
  15. web_surfer

    web_surfer New Member

    Messages:
    38
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    software ?

    In an earlier post you said used "AutoCad" program. Is this a program you have through work or is it something readily available for a reasonable cost?

    Great program - wish I would have had it when laid out my new plumbing & dwv work.

    Matt
  16. BeanAnimal

    BeanAnimal New Member

    Messages:
    21
    Autocad costs about $4,000 I have access to it by favor of a client. It takes quite a bit of time to learn how to work with it... there are easier programs, but this is what I have access to and was trained to use (years ago).

    It looks like all of my help has disapeared....
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2009
  17. Lakee911

    Lakee911 I&C Engineer (mostly WWTP)

    Messages:
    1,328
    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    Hey are you the same BeanAnimal from ReefCentral? (Sorry...I'm not helping!)
  18. BeanAnimal

    BeanAnimal New Member

    Messages:
    21
    Are there any others? :)

    I thought I recognized your name...
  19. Lakee911

    Lakee911 I&C Engineer (mostly WWTP)

    Messages:
    1,328
    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    I thought there might be ... but I guess not.

    Welcome. :D

    I don't get over to RC much anymore ... thinking of selling the tank. :(
  20. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,537
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    Dwv

    Why are those two vents going over to the lateral line and then jumping up into it, rather than just going flat into the side of it? The vent from the downstairs may have to be rerouted to the left side of the main vent to get out from under the window. It CANNOT be run the way you show it unless the BOTTOM of the pipe is at least 36" above the floor, NOT 30". This is not negotiable. The connection to the 4" riser CAN BE, and usually is, a sanitary tee, it does not have to be a combo.
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2009
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