Duravit replacement?

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JohnM.

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My wife and I have been renovating an apartment that we have not moved into yet. There was a designer involved who recommended a Duravit Happy D. floor-mounted rear-outlet toilet. I guess we weren't paying much attention and signed off on it without much thought or research. Now, as we will be moving in shortly, the Happy D. has been fully installed and we both have reservations about it. My wife has realized that it is the same brand/model that they have at her job. Suffice to say she is not a big fan of the toilet. I am bothered by the extremely low water-level inside the bowl, which apparently cannot be raised.

Due to the 7-inch rough-in there are not a large amount of choices to replace the Happy D. Our super provided me a list of possibilities which are all dual-flush, 1.6 gallon max. The brands are Ebler, Elkinson, Kennard, Burdett, Stapleton, DuBois, Julian. My question is, since these toilets are European-style, will they basically all be the same as the Happy D?

Is anyone familiar with any of the brands I listed in comparison to Duravit? Do they all have low water-levels like the Happy D? Does any brand flush particularly well? Any responses are greatly appreciated. Thanks
 

WJcandee

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You are correct, you can't change the amount of water in the bowl at rest. An adjustable fill valve could put more water in the bowl on each cycle of the toilet, but it wouldn't stay; once a toilet bowl has reached its designed level of fill, the excess water will simply dribble over the weir and down the drain. See the cutaway below:

toilet%20diagram.jpg


The water spot is smaller on most modern toilets than it was in the old days, when you had a swimming pool in there.

That said, a lot of the european-style toilets have a thimble of water in there, which doesn't make we Americans very happy. What a shame that your designer went for form over function, and stuck you with a floor-mounted rear-outlet toilet, which, I'm sure you realize, is non-standard.

I'm assuming you have the version with the tank on the toilet, not a tank in the wall. Just out of curiosity, what was there before? A flushometer mounted on the wall, or a regular floor-discharge toilet? Or something else?

It seems like your super is accustomed to the fancy-schmancy-looking toilets that don't work that well. Must be that kind of building. The sad part is that for the $800-plus full price that your designer stuck you with, you could have had a gorgeous top of the line standard toilet from a brand that works, like Toto. Unfortunately, Toto doesn't make rear-outlet toilets (except the kind that hang on the wall with an in-wall tank).

Believe it or not, we have had folks who have posted on here that have insisted on installing toilets like the Happy D, Starck, etc., over our advice to the contrary, because "they're so pretty". Apparently, flushing twice, brushing frequently, and masking the smells from a tiny water spot are worth it to them in order to have a toilet they can proudly display to their friends. Each to their own, I guess.

Kohler makes a floor-mount rear outlet toilet called the Barrington that uses a Sloan Flushmate pressure-assist tank, so you get a decent-sized water spot and good bowl clearing. It's not schwanky, but it works. Unfortunately, I'm not sure it will fit on your rough-in, although presumably the plumber could adjust the rough-in height if you haven't finished the wall yet. The Barrington, like most American floor-mount rear-discharge toilets (and they are a rare breed), is made for a coupler ("rough-in") that has its centerline 4" above the floor, and that's not variable.

If it fits, you want the K-3554 and not the K-3652 because the former is a 1.6gpf toilet rather than the 1.0gpf. Although the spec sheet shows the water spot on both as 12" x 10", which is decent, most manufacturers of ultra-low-water-consumption toilets (e.g. 1.0gpf) get some of the savings by adjusting the bowl configuration to reduce the amount of water in it at rest. So even though it's supposed to be the same two-dimensional size in both, I wouldn't be surprised if one is deeper than the other. Just a guess, but an educated one.

Come back with any additional questions, and let us know how it goes. We're here for ya, even if your designer wasn't.
 
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JohnM.

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You are correct, you can't change the amount of water in the bowl at rest. An adjustable fill valve could put more water in the bowl on each cycle of the toilet, but it wouldn't stay; once a toilet bowl has reached its designed level of fill, the excess water will simply dribble over the weir and down the drain. See the cutaway below:

toilet%20diagram.jpg


The water spot is smaller on most modern toilets than it was in the old days, when you had a swimming pool in there.

That said, a lot of the european-style toilets have a thimble of water in there, which doesn't make we Americans very happy. What a shame that your designer went for form over function, and stuck you with a floor-mounted rear-outlet toilet, which, I'm sure you realize, is non-standard.

I'm assuming you have the version with the tank on the toilet, not a tank in the wall. Just out of curiosity, what was there before? A flushometer mounted on the wall, or a regular floor-discharge toilet? Or something else?

It seems like your super is accustomed to the fancy-schmancy-looking toilets that don't work that well. Must be that kind of building. The sad part is that for the $800-plus full price that your designer stuck you with, you could have had a gorgeous top of the line standard toilet from a brand that works, like Toto. Unfortunately, Toto doesn't make rear-outlet toilets (except the kind that hang on the wall with an in-wall tank).

Believe it or not, we have had folks who have posted on here that have insisted on installing toilets like the Happy D, Starck, etc., over our advice to the contrary, because "they're so pretty". Apparently, flushing twice, brushing frequently, and masking the smells from a tiny water spot are worth it to them in order to have a toilet they can proudly display to their friends. Each to their own, I guess.

Kohler makes a floor-mount rear outlet toilet called the Barrington that uses a Sloan Flushmate pressure-assist tank, so you get a decent-sized water spot and good bowl clearing. It's not schwanky, but it works. Unfortunately, I'm not sure it will fit on your rough-in, although presumably the plumber could adjust the rough-in height if you haven't finished the wall yet. The Barrington, like most American floor-mount rear-discharge toilets (and they are a rare breed), is made for a coupler ("rough-in") that has its centerline 4" above the floor, and that's not variable.

If it fits, you want the K-3554 and not the K-3652 because the former is a 1.6gpf toilet rather than the 1.0gpf. Although the spec sheet shows the water spot on both as 12" x 10", which is decent, most manufacturers of ultra-low-water-consumption toilets (e.g. 1.0gpf) get some of the savings by adjusting the bowl configuration to reduce the amount of water in it at rest. So even though it's supposed to be the same two-dimensional size in both, I wouldn't be surprised if one is deeper than the other. Just a guess, but an educated one.

Come back with any additional questions, and let us know how it goes. We're here for ya, even if your designer wasn't.

Thanks for the informative reply WJ. I vaguely remember the toilet that was in the apartment pre-renovation. It was an American-style that looked from the 70's or '80's. I assume it was also rear-outlet since I don't remember any talk of altering the plumbing for the toilet. In theory the Kohler Barrington you mention should not fit, however I wonder if this adapter would work? http://www.toiletadaptor.com/. It is supposed to adapt Euro toilets to U.S. rough-ins, shouldn't it work other way as well?
 

WJcandee

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It might fit, but the problem is that it is based on the premise that water likes to go downhill. In reverse, the water would be going uphill. That would be bad, most likely resulting in sloshing of icky stuff back into the bowl.

However, you should confirm definitively what the height of the flange centerline is, by actually looking at it. If you had a typical American rear-discharge non-wall-hung toilet on there before, I doubt if the flange is as high as would be appropriate for the Happy D.

Let us know how it's going.
 

JohnM.

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It might fit, but the problem is that it is based on the premise that water likes to go downhill. In reverse, the water would be going uphill. That would be bad, most likely resulting in sloshing of icky stuff back into the bowl.

However, you should confirm definitively what the height of the flange centerline is, by actually looking at it. If you had a typical American rear-discharge non-wall-hung toilet on there before, I doubt if the flange is as high as would be appropriate for the Happy D.

Let us know how it's going.

Sorry, I should have stated that the Duravit has already been installed for weeks. So yes, it is a 7-inch rough-in. I don't know how the heck they got the previous old American toilet on there. We have not moved into the apartment yet and it was only after the bathroom had been done that my wife realized the toilet was a Duravit and freaked out. As I mentioned, when the designer was selecting bathroom fixtures we were not paying too much attention due to some other things that were going on at the time. With 7-inch rough-in I don't think the designer had any choice but to select a Euro toilet. That said, regarding the other Euro options that the super suggested (Ebler, Elkinson, Kennard, Burdett, Stapleton, DuBois, Julian), are any one of these more American-like than the Duravit? Does water sit higher in the bowl on any of these than the Duravit, or are Euro toilets all the same? Thanks!
 
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