Can I install a compact front load washer in the place of the dishwasher?

[Toto]

Hello,


I am happy that I found this forum. But I am not a pro, so I did not understand all of the stuff that I have read here so far, and could not find a solution to the problem that I face. So I hope you could help me.


I would like to install a 24'' front load washer in the place of the dishwasher in the kitchen area of my apartment. I was very happy when the landlord gave his permission under the condition the washer to be installed by a professional plumber. But it seems to me now that I was happy too early, as I had no idea what a professional installation meant and had no idea that such a thing as a Plumbing Code existed as well. (The problem with the code in particular is that it is not publicly accessible - I will have to buy it in order to even have a chance to try to read in and see if I even have a problem with it).


So once I had the landlord's permission I ordered the 24'' wide compact washer, which would fit under my counter. I thought that since the compact washer was designed to fit under a kitchen counter, and the manual of the washer was asking for a 1 1/4 '' standpipe for drainage, then there would be no problem to hook the washer, because the drain pipe under the sink is larger than that. I believed that the pipes draining my kitchen sink were 2'', but I was measuring them on the outside and later discovered that this most likely translates to 1 3/4''. But this is still by 1/2'' larger than the minimum requirement for the washer.


However, several plumbers I contacted said they could not do the installation or that it can not be done at all. Only one or two mentioned that it can't be done because the drain pipes I have are less than 2''. So I am desperate to find a plumber who could do the job. I would appreciate it if you could give your opinion if the washer can be installed and suggestions on how this can be done. I can not do permanent modifications to the kitchen cabinets or the walls behind them that can not be replaced / repaired after I move out. I hope that from the pictures you will be able to see what I mean and what are my ideas. My favorite is on pic 3 - the sink siphon connection.

 

[Toto]

Just to clarify: the black line on picture 3 is over the current drain of my washer. And below are extracts of the washer's manual.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Jadnashua]

The instructions say you need a standpipe...connecting it to a wye is not the same thing. 17gpm is a pretty hefty flow rate, and is one reason why codes require a 2" pipe for 'normal' WM installation. It is irrelevant that another brand allows connection directly to the sink like that...you have to do two things: install it per code, or if the device in question has passed tests, it must be installed as directed in its installation instructions. The other unit very likely has a smaller pump, so it would not overwhelm the drain.

An option MIGHT be to not make a direct connection to the drain at all, and route the hose such that it drains into the sink itself. Since the water can come out at a fairly high rate and pressure, you'd have to be careful with it splashing, but the volume of the sink may be sufficient to overcome the high volume during a drain cycle.

 

[Toto]

The instructions say you need a standpipe...connecting it to a wye is not the same thing. 17gpm is a pretty hefty flow rate, and is one reason why codes require a 2" pipe for 'normal' WM installation. It is irrelevant that another brand allows connection directly to the sink like that...you have to do two things: install it per code, or if the device in question has passed tests, it must be installed as directed in its installation instructions. The other unit very likely has a smaller pump, so it would not overwhelm the drain.

An option MIGHT be to not make a direct connection to the drain at all, and route the hose such that it drains into the sink itself. Since the water can come out at a fairly high rate and pressure, you'd have to be careful with it splashing, but the volume of the sink may be sufficient to overcome the high volume during a drain cycle.

Hi,

Thanks for your reply! I do agree that the two machines might have different pumps. What I do not understand is the part where you talk about 'if the device has been tested'' ..... What do you mean? Could it be on the market with this manual if it has not been tested? This is also a very important question if I decide to install the Bosch washer instead.

I do not know if the Code makes any difference with respect to certain technical specifications of the washers, or it just says 2'' if washer and that's it. May be you can help me with that as I do not have the Code. And what should be done if the Code says 2'' drain pipe and the washer manual - 1 1/4 ''. And what if the code changes over time and starts asking for a 2 1/2'' pipe.

Like I said, I am not a pro and there are many things I have hard time understanding. I would appreciate it if you could explain some of them or point to a source that may help me do that.

One of those things is how much a 1 1/4'' standpipe is different than a 1 1/2 wye in terms of capability to deal with a flow rate? In this case how is a 1 1/4 '' standpipe being able to deal with a flow rate of 17 gpm and the 1 1/2'' drain pipe under the sink is not. Or is it?

Another thing that I have hard time understanding is how if I hook the hose to drain in the sink would be different than if I make a direct connection to the drain pipe of the sink. It is still the same drain pipes.

Last but not least, does my scheme on Picture 2 (in my firs post) qualify for a stand pipe as per the requirements of the washers manual or the Code? Well, my 'standpipe' will not be coming up from the floor - it will be something as the scheme below, but will have the height requirement as measured from the floor). And if it does - is it safe to make the installation this way? It just seems safer to me if I drain the washer directly in the sink drain, but as I said, I do not know much about plumbing and rely on what I have left of my common sense.

Again thank you,

Toto

 

[Asktom]

It is not legal to connect a clotheswashing machine to the same trap as a kitchen sink, at least under the UPC - 1001.3. And, whatever code you are under, it certainly is not sanitary. When dirty BVD washwater backs up into the sink where you are thawing that turkey, you are liable to end up with dingleberries in your Easter stuffing.

 

[Themp]

I would buy the Bosch Axxis and find a plumber that will install it using the current dishwasher discharge connection under the sink. Is there a difference between a dishwasher or disposal discharge that are connected to a standpipe? Maybe the washer has more water discharge than a disposal or dishwasher, but it would seem the sanitary aspect of this is no different than a dishwasher or disposal. But I could not figure out what BVD meant from the post above. The compact washers seem to have about 7-8 gallons of water discharge total, meaning for each cycle the discharge is much less.

Or go with a portable washer(GE Model # WSLP1500HWW) It rolls around in the kitchen and you can connect straight to the sink faucet and discharge into the sink. Roll away when done. No plumber needed. You can then keep your dishwasher.

 

[Gary Swart]

Aside from the fact that you have zero knowledge about what you are doing, you are headed for trouble. The landlord gave permission contingent upon the work being done by a licensed plumber and following plumbing codes. You have ignored this requirement and are plowing ahead DIY. Best you stop and get a licensed plumber to do this before you really screw up. If you can afford a plumber, keep on packing your laundry to the laundry mat.

 

[Jadnashua]

I highly doubt you have enough height for a code legal WM stand pipe underneath the counter. On one drain line calculator I checked, a 1.5" pipe can a drain flow volume of 7.6gpm. The instructions say you need to be able to handle 17gpm, over twice as much, and that doesn't take into account you might be draining the sink at the same time. There are reasons for the code.

The only way that other WM would work into that type of drain is because it pumps the water MUCH slower, which means (probably) a much longer wash cycle and (maybe) less water extraction during the spin cycle. It could overcome that if it had more smarts and a variable speed motor for spin or a flow restrictor.

 

[Cacher_Chick]

I was in a home that had a similar washer and they drained it into their bathtub.

 

[Toto]

Aside from the fact that you have zero knowledge about what you are doing, you are headed for trouble. The landlord gave permission contingent upon the work being done by a licensed plumber and following plumbing codes. You have ignored this requirement and are plowing ahead DIY. Best you stop and get a licensed plumber to do this before you really screw up. If you can afford a plumber, keep on packing your laundry to the laundry mat.

I guess you have not read my first post to its very end. I do NOT intend to do the job myself. I will hire a plumber. What got me concerned, however, was the fact that some plumbers said they could not do this job, whereas others said they could but asked for over $500, and third plumbers said it is an easy job. So I wanted to dig deeper into the subject myself to make sure that I wont face problems after installation by the plumbers.

After my first post I found out that there are two types of plumbers - licensed and not licensed. I am not sure what is the difference, what I know is that my landlord is OK with a professional plumber and he does not have to be a licensed one.

 

[Toto]

I highly doubt you have enough height for a code legal WM stand pipe underneath the counter. On one drain line calculator I checked, a 1.5" pipe can a drain flow volume of 7.6gpm. The instructions say you need to be able to handle 17gpm, over twice as much, and that doesn't take into account you might be draining the sink at the same time. There are reasons for the code.

The only way that other WM would work into that type of drain is because it pumps the water MUCH slower, which means (probably) a much longer wash cycle and (maybe) less water extraction during the spin cycle. It could overcome that if it had more smarts and a variable speed motor for spin or a flow restrictor.

See, here is my problem: I do not have 'the Code' and I do not know what is the required height for a standpipe. On picture I above you will see the heights that I have - I have 84 cm if measured from the floor, whereas the washer's manual requires a standpipe with a minimum height of 76 cm. So can I make the installation?

If you are right, and probably you are, that a 1.5" pipe can a drain flow volume of 7.6gpm, how come then the washers manual requires a min. 1 1/4 '' standpipe but asks for 17gpm capacity of the drainage?

Regarding the sanitary reasoning - this is not a problem for me at all, as I do NOT ever put food in the sink. I even do not put the dirty dishes in the sink.

Again, thanks for your comments. I am still looking for answers though.

 

[Jadnashua]

There is a difference between gravity draining and pumped draining...a WM is pumped. But, that second WM you listed appears to be designed to drain slower. The one you bought requires the standpipe, or, as I said, you could probably drain it into the top of the sink. The sink would offer some overflow capability if the pump pushed water out faster than the drain could drain. It MIGHT not work, as your sink might be too small.

Code requires the height of the standpipe FROM THE P-TRAP, not just the room in the cabinet. Since your p-trap is not on the floor, you do not have the room.

At least where I live, in a multi-family dwelling, you must pull a building permit to make plumbing changes, AND, the plumber MUST have a license. To get a license involves a lot of years of training, then passing tests. IOW, they are required to know the rules, and can lose their license if they do not follow them. Plus, any inspector should fail a job that is not done properly. Lots of people ignore this fact and pay a handyman that calls himself a plumber, but technically, unless he has a license, he should not call himself a plumber.

 

[Toto]

There is a difference between gravity draining and pumped draining...a WM is pumped. But, that second WM you listed appears to be designed to drain slower. The one you bought requires the standpipe, or, as I said, you could probably drain it into the top of the sink. The sink would offer some overflow capability if the pump pushed water out faster than the drain could drain. It MIGHT not work, as your sink might be too small.

Code requires the height of the standpipe FROM THE P-TRAP, not just the room in the cabinet. Since your p-trap is not on the floor, you do not have the room.

At least where I live, in a multi-family dwelling, you must pull a building permit to make plumbing changes, AND, the plumber MUST have a license. To get a license involves a lot of years of training, then passing tests. IOW, they are required to know the rules, and can lose their license if they do not follow them. Plus, any inspector should fail a job that is not done properly. Lots of people ignore this fact and pay a handyman that calls himself a plumber, but technically, unless he has a license, he should not call himself a plumber.

This is exactly why I asked for opinions here - I was afraid some of the plumbers I contacted are more like handymen who would take the cash for the work but leave me with troubles to deal.

Now I also see what you meant regarding the standpipe. I had no idea it should be measured from the p-trap. I guess I will achieve the proper height if I could remove some of the bottom of the cabinet. Or I could make the standpipe and the P-trap behind the washer and connect them with the drain pipe. But I kind of do not like the idea of not having a visual to the drainage I think I would prefer to put the washer's drain dose in the sink. This is also one of the options shown in the washer's manual, and it is advertised, that the max amount of water this washer uses is 8 gallons, so I guess the sink will be big enough for any excess. The only thing that I still do not understand is what is the difference between the WM drain hose in the sink v. connected to the drain pipe of the sink. Yes, if the drain water from the WM is too much it will go up in the sink, but you get this result also when you put the hose in the sink.

Again thank you for your and everybody's posts. They do help me put the puzzle together.

 

[Gary Swart]

Anyone who owns a pipe wrench can call himself a plumber. However, a licensed plumber is someone who has complete comprehensive training and has met the requirements to obtain a license. When he does a job, he first pulls the required permits. When he completes the job, the inspector must inspect the job to verify it was done according to the appropriate code. If is not satisfactory, the errors in the work must be corrected and then reinspected. We call the unlicensed "plumber" a hack. He doesn't bother with those pesky permits and inspections. Yes, the real plumber will cost more, but the job will be legal. You may find a wide range of prices for your job because some will really not want the job so will quote a high price. That's why you should get several estimates.

 

[Jadnashua]

A standpipe won't hold a lot of water, so it must be large enough to flow the maximum being fed to it since there's nowhere to temporarily store it before it can drain away. WHen you discharge it into the sink, the sink acts like a big buffer pool. It is a very big difference.

 

[Toto]

I all sounds very nice with the licensed plumbers, however, they seem to have their hands tied bu the code, which seems to ask for a 2'' drain piping if you want to drain a washer. And I doubt that this rule differentiates between washers with different capacities etc. I have doubts that the requirements for a 6 cu. ft. washer (which are more common on this continent from what I've seen so fat) should be the same as for a washer that takes 3 times smaller loads and uses a maximum of 8 gallons of water (and think that is not even at one time). One of the licensed plumbers actually admitted he has never seen such a washer. So it could be that the code does not make any difference with respect to the technical characteristics of a washer, or it could be that the plumbers have never payed attention to such a difference (if it exists) as they are not used to installing these small washers.

In the end, it seems that there is no way a licensed washer would do this job for a decent pay. So what I am trying to do in this forum is to figure out what would be the best solution to the problem, given the circumstances, as I do not to leave it all in the hands of someone who just happen to call himself a plumber, because he owns a pipe wrench, as Gary pointed above. On the other hand, I am thinking, that since the licensed plumbers are always following the standards of the code, the likeliness of them knowing if another solution shall work is pretty slim. So to say, if you are always following the speed limit, you are not likely to know how much faster your car can actually go with you feeling comfortable and in control behind the wheel. Hope you get my point.

 

[Jadnashua]

You are not likely to get an answer to your liking! Your landlord has a responsibility to keep his building up to code, or he can be fined and required to make it so. A plumber can lose his license if he does not perform work to the code. You have been given the restriction that it must be done by a licensed plumber AND he does not want permanent changes. The only way I see it working, with what I know now (and I admit there may be a way I'm not seeing, but the plumbers with licenses have already said they can't, so there probably isn't a way), the only way it is likely to end up is if you drain it into the sink from the top.

FWIW, a lot of the front loading WM these days do only use a small amount of water in any one cycle, but they tend to pump it MUCH faster than the older, top-loaders. Your compact machine would be even lower, but still, they spin at high speed, and that aids the pump considerably.

 

[Toto]

I am not trying to get an answer to my liking. However, I have raised many questions above, and only few were answered anyway. I am thinking I would need to find a physicists' forum to get most of my questions answered. Plumbers seem to look for answers only in their codes, but seem to have hard time providing answers that are not given by the code or explaining the rationale behind the answers/rules provided by the code.

 

[Jadnashua]

There are lots of things that may work sometimes...the codes require you to make it work all of the time. IOW, what may work, really doesn't matter since if the codes are being followed, you know yours, or anyone's down the road with a different product would also work. The codes are written for those what-if situations. History has taught plumbers and the people that write the codes that when you make compromises, things can fail, either in a health issue or property damage.

It is highly likely that your local library either has, or can get a copy of the plumbing codes, and the plumbing inspector's office will have one you can probably look at as well. But, most people don't worry about that because it is the plumber's job to know these things to pass his exams to get his license. They've already told you they cannot install it the way you want. Eventually, you'll probably find it doesn't work to fight city hall. If you get it installed, and one of those 'what-if' situations occur and it creates damage, guess who is likely to end up paying for it?

 

[FullySprinklered]

My biggest concern for you is that you may be disappointed in the performance of the machine. I owned a little washer that size some years ago. Anything bigger than a t-shirt would get tied up in a knot. I turned it back and ended up back at the Laundromat drinking a tall boy out of a paper bag while my duds were washing, as before.

Whatever you decide to do just remember. You live in Nova Scotia. They'll never find you there.