Can a load center have a breaker as large as its main?

Discussion in 'Electrical Forum discussion & Blog' started by leejosepho, Sep 28, 2011.

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  1. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    Then open your mind to things that are different than you believe them to be.
    The only thing that your brother did at that campsite was open himself up to some major law suites should someone end up getting hurt by his not knowing what he was doing.
    As has been pointed out many times the current is not shunted to earth and this is nothing more than flawed thinking. He did nothing to make the campsite safer by bonding everything to a ground rod and not even one electron was sent to earth. Every one of those electrons made it back to the transformer.
    As has been pointed out numerous times throughout this thread “there must be a complete path from the source back to the source for current to flow.” With no bonding jumper there is no complete path between the equipment grounding conductor and the neutral therefore no current reading could be made between the equipment grounding conductor and the neutral in the panel. If the bonding screw had been installed you still would not have been able to get a current reading as the breaker would not have held in long enough for a reading to have been made.
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2011
  2. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    I promise you that I have no ego problems. I know that I still after 40 plus years in the trade I have a lot to learn as this trade is an ongoing learning experience. If I seem to know more about this than you do them it might be because I do but instead of it making you sick it should make you eager to listen and soak up some of this knowledge that I offer to you for free.

    If you wish I will reframe from posting anything to questions you have and let you go through life as misguided as you are now unless someone else starts to make you sick with their knowledge.

    What say you? Do you want me to stop or not?
  3. leejosepho

    leejosepho DIY scratch-pad engineer

    It has taken me a couple of days to get back to your post here, but I want you to know I had not forgotten about it. I have not tried the AFI breaker since correcting that second short, but yes, what you have said would definitely explain things ... and I thank you.

    Yes, and exactly that is what had once happened to me. I was working in a place where the boss had a metal box on the end of a piece of rubber cord, a big no-no, and he was using a metal goose-neck lamp plugged into that box. Maybe a wire had come loose inside the box or maybe the light's plug needed to be put in the other way (back then in the day of same-sized blades), but I had picked up the box with one hand and the light with the other, and WHAM! Instantly. Both had been on the floor, and now there I was with current holding me in a frozen position and with a loud buzz sounding in my brain while I was trying to holler "Unplug me!" I have no idea whether any of my words actually came out, but the boss at least saw something was wrong and pulled the cord from the wall socket.

    Still in relation to the matter of a receptacle's ground, there is yet another purpose beyond lightening and what you have mentioned, at least in one case known to me:

    I once had a computer that would not work correctly unless it was connected to a grounded receptacle, and that used to be a big problem for me in any room that did not have grounded outlets. Using a 3-to-2 adapter could get the device plugged in and powered up, but it still needed a ground in place to actually work. So, and while I would no longer do this today, there have been times in the past where I have temporarily added a jumper wire from an outlet's neutral screw to its ground screw in order to make it possible for that particular machine to work.
  4. leejosepho

    leejosepho DIY scratch-pad engineer

    My mind is not closed, and I am continually checking my mere beliefs against actual facts. So again: Please stop talking about me and just stick to the relevant facts!

    You are full of ****. By the time he was done, people were no longer getting shocked ... and that fact is true even if he never understands or believes how that actually happened.

    I now know that ...

    You are wrong. Simple ignorance is one thing, but "flawed thinking" is a judgmental statement having nothing to do with the physical facts at hand.

    You have missed my question. While the panel was not bonded and the hot was shorted, no current appeared between hot and neutral even though the neutral's return path was good and no significant amount of current was being shunted to ground.

    Question: Do you have any idea where I can get the breaker retainer you had informed me about being needed in my panel?
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2011
  5. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    Yes you have a fixation that connecting to a ground rod seems to cure everything. This is evidenced in your next statement.
    So you and him both are convinced that by losing a staple in a cable that is arcing to the bark of a tree fixed the damaged sheathing of the cable? Or was it the connection of the metal boxes to the ground rod that fixed this damaged sheathing of the cable? Come on now Lee we all know that he did nothing to improve the cables. As to no one being shocked proves nothing. Remember the thread where the equipment grounding conductor was lifted and the devices connected to a rod at a pier in order to stop the tingle shock when touching the metal pier. Instead of taking away the shock they removed the safety line that would save a life and did nothing to make the situation safer.
    Then how did what your brother did solve the problem and everyone quit getting shocked? What about you comment here about the short in the panel and nothing being shunted to the ground rod.
    Call it a judgmental or flawed, either way it is incorrect just as your statement below about “no significant amount of current was being shunted to groundâ€
    In order for current to flow there has to be a complete path for current to flow. In order to have current between the hot and neutral conductor and the breaker not open there must be a load of some sort between the two.
    If you are saying there was not voltage present between the two then I am going to guess that there was something open between the test points.

    From the manufacturer of the panel if that panel is designed to accept one. It may be that the panel has been discontinued and will need to be replaced with a newer model in order to tie the breaker down.
  6. BobL43

    BobL43 DIY Senior Member

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    Oy, oy oy, oy, oy.
  7. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

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    JW, you seem to hold steadfast to the theory that not a single electron of current flows through the ground which you must know to be wrong. The ground (earth) can and does somtimes provide a current path.

    In electrical safety training we were taught that current, not voltage is the killer. In the event of a fallen high voltage line, we were taught to bunny hop and not to run away from the danger. When one runs, there can be a voltage differential between one foot and the other and current can flow through the ground between one foot and the other.

    In the example of the dock, the tingles felt were from current flowing through the body to the water (earth ground).
  8. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    Current can and does flow through earth but a connection to a ground rod does not mitigate the danger of current flow through the body as being discussed in this thread. The current flowing through earth is seeking its source.

    The connection to the grounding electrode system does not lessen the danger of electrical shock to someone coming in contact with something energized. As a matter of fact the tingle that Lee felt was due to current flowing through earth or at least the concrete floor he was standing on.

    Every electron that is flowing through earth is searching for its source where it must return. This law that states that the current must return to its source is evidenced by the primary and secondary connection of the transformer at the pole. The neutral of both the primary and secondary connects to the grounding electrode at the pole which holds the transformer.
    If the laws of current flow were as some think then why doesn’t the current of the primary come in on the neutral of the secondary that is connect to the same point? The answer is simple; every electron is seeking its own source.
  9. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

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    As to Lee' rather un-nice comments on JW's personality [on line, at least] I must say he reminds me of Sister Jerome from the 7th grade, who carried a pointer that must have been hickory, since it never broke on the massive strokes adminstered to me.

    But now I remember her fondly as one of the best teachers I ever had. She had eyes in the back of her head and a snicker behind her would get a direct hit in nano second turn around. Plus she was big as a football player, and her boots scared the hell out of us. No electric schocks for her!

    Hit a kid now with a wooden spoon and its off to jail and the special child abuse prosecutor paid by production of convictions.

    I left my kid in the tool van with a German Shepherd that would go through the closed window if someone even looked at my kid, while entering a store for a few minutes. My wife told me I would have gone to jail for that. Amazing.
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2011
  10. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

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    Yes, but because of the dog. I think there are more laws regarding the treatment of dogs than children.
  11. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    reversed polarity and grounding is two different things and using a metal box with a rubber cord is an acceptable wiring method.

    Unless you have come across something that all those great minds that writes the NEC and those text books used in our schools today then there is no other reason for the ground rods which has already been pointed out to you in this thread.
    If it would come on just what did the grounding conductor do that made it work? I don’t understand how it could come on but not work and by some miracle the equipment grounding conductor made the system work. The equipment grounding conductor does not conduct electricity unless there is a ground fault. Ever wonder why the equipment grounding conductor is bare and not insulated?
    All you did was make the equipment grounding terminal and anything connected to it at the same potential as the circuit itself. It neither made anything connected to it work nor did it make anything safe. Quite the contrary what you did was very dangerous and could have caused someone to have been hurt very badly. If this was an acceptable wiring method why are the two not connected together instead of requiring two completely different conductors?
  12. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    This thread was started asking if a 30 amp breaker could be installed in a panel that was supplied by a 30 amp feeder.

    The answer to that question was yes.

    The thread has turned into something different than what the original post was asking. Although the discussion has covered some very important information concerning grounding it seems that the information is being shunned therefore there is no need to continue the discussion.

    I am closing this thread as it seems to have become anything but educational. Should anyone have any questions concerning the information contained in this thread please start another thread.

    Should anyone think this thread is being closed prematurely send me a PM and we will discuss the issue.
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