Bonding ground rod to water pipe to nuetral bus

Discussion in 'Electrical Forum discussion & Blog' started by Lakee911, Jan 29, 2008.

  1. Lakee911

    Lakee911 I&C Engineer (mostly WWTP)

    Messages:
    1,328
    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    Good morning,
    Does anything prevent me from splicing (with a split bolt) a #6 grounding conductor (outside of an electrical box) that bonds the incoming cold water pipe with the nuetral/ground bus in the main service panel?
    Can I bond the conductor going to the ground rod to the conductor mentioned above outside of the electrical panel and using a split bolt?

    Thanks,
    Jason
  2. Cass

    Cass Plumber

    Messages:
    5,980
    Location:
    Ohio
    While I don't know the answer...I am curious as to why you want to do this.

    Does the ground rod wire go to the panel or is it broken or something else?
  3. Lakee911

    Lakee911 I&C Engineer (mostly WWTP)

    Messages:
    1,328
    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    Because that is how it is currently done and when I put in my new panel, I think the existing conductors will be too short and I do not know if they need to be replaced.

    Thanks,
    Jason
  4. Cass

    Cass Plumber

    Messages:
    5,980
    Location:
    Ohio
    Lets see if I understand...you have 2 wires, a ground rod wire and water pipe ground wire both going from the panel box to their respective termination spots but they are bonded / connected together somewhere inbetween with a split bolt.

    Is this correct.
  5. got_nailed

    got_nailed DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    277
    If you have already met your earthling (grounding) requirements then I think you could if…
    Call it bonding the water lines.
    The ground rod wire would have to be one peace.
    I would think it would have to be in a box but I don’t know.

    You could use a ground rod clam and clamp it to the ground rod instead. But it sounds like you came up short on the wire so that might not work. You have to bond the water pipe within 5 feet of the entrance of the water pipe if it is metal on the outside of the house. You might be able to slide it down a few feet. If the water pipe is not metal out side of the house you should be able to bond it anywhere.

    I can’t think of any thing in the NEC that would not let you do that.

    Remember I’m a plumber but did deal with some electrical stuff and at one point I did know most of the 2005 but never understood it all.
  6. Bob NH

    Bob NH In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,317
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    The metal incoming cold water pipe, if at least 10 ft long in contact with the earth, is a Grounding Electrode per 250.52.

    Any additional ground rod is a Supplemental electrode per 250.53(D)(2).

    The conductor connecting the Grounding Electrode to the grounded conductor at the service panel is a Grounding Electrode Conductor per 250.24(D).

    The size of the Grounding Electrode Conductor must meet the requirements of Table 250.66. A #6 copper GEC may be used if the incoming ungrounded (hot) conductor is not greater than 1/0 copper or 3/0 aluminum, which are the minimum sizes for a 175 Amp service. If the service is 200 Amps you need larger supply conductors and larger GEC.

    250.64 Grounding Electroed Conductor Installation.
    250.64(C) requires that the GEC be continuous, or spliced with irreversible connectors or welded.

    250.53(D)(2) permits the supplemental electrodes to be bonded to the GEC, so connecting the bonding jumper from the supplemental electrode to the GEC with a split bolt, outside a box, is permitted.
  7. Lakee911

    Lakee911 I&C Engineer (mostly WWTP)

    Messages:
    1,328
    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    Armed with my copy of the 2005 NEC, let's see if I can follow.

    Per 250.50 these become my grounding electrode system. 250.53(E) states that the connection to my supplemental system shall be #6 copper. I don't know if 250.53(D)(2) has to apply if I consider the ground rod to be the grounding electrode and the water pipe supplemental.

    I'm not sure how this applies. :confused:

    That doesn't seem right for residential service. If you see 250.66(A), it says that it need not be larger than #6 Cu if connected to the ground rod.

    Yes, I see that. Maybe I can solder the connections (with a torch). Would crimp be irreversible?

    I see how it says that it needs to be bonded, but I don't know where you get that it's ok out of a box w/ a split bolt.

    Thx
    Jason
  8. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

    Messages:
    2,529
    Location:
    North Carolina
    250.64 mandates how the Grounding Electrode Conductor (GEC) is to be installed. It is also important to understand what a GEC is. Any conductor that originates in the panel or meter base and lands on an electrode is a GEC.
    To install a conductor from the meter base to a rod and then from the panel to a metal water pipe as described in 250.52(A)(1) would constitute two GECs.
    To install a conductor from the panel to a metal water pipe as described in 250.52(A)(1) and then go from the water pipe to the ground rod only one GEC conductor would be installed and the conductor from the water pipe to the rod would be a bonding jumper.

    250.64 mandates that a GEC be continuous and without splice and the use of a gas torch and solder would not work for a exothermic weld.
    250.53(C) mandates the installation of the bonding jumper. Here we are referred to 250.64(A),(B) & (E). There is no mention of 250.64(C) therefore the bonding jumper can be spliced.

    In the case you have described above the simple answer to the question is NO!
  9. kd

    kd New Member

    Messages:
    207
    Do not solder any electrical installations. (Appliances, tools, etc. can be soldered. ) Code legal methods are crimp or exothermic welding. Some parts houses will sell you Crimp fittings and rent you a crimp tool with a huge cash deposit. Another method is exothermic welding. This is mixing chemicals in a crucible and then igniting them. Full face mask, gloves, and non-flammable clothing is required.
    Ask your inspector if you can use a barrel type compression connector or split bolt and them shrink wrap it so it cannot be taken apart without cutting (the shrink wrap). If there is no inspector.......
  10. Lakee911

    Lakee911 I&C Engineer (mostly WWTP)

    Messages:
    1,328
    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    Thanks for the info everyone.
  11. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

    Messages:
    2,529
    Location:
    North Carolina
    See what welding looks like here

    [​IMG]
  12. Lakee911

    Lakee911 I&C Engineer (mostly WWTP)

    Messages:
    1,328
    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    Looks pretty slick!
  13. Wet_Boots

    Wet_Boots Sprinkler Guy

    Messages:
    798
    Location:
    Metro NYC
    "Cadwelding" is another term for that type of exothermic welding. (think 'thermite' but without the iron)
  14. Alectrician

    Alectrician DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    689

    You didn't explain this very well.

    If the GEC is continuous from the service to the ground rod it sounds like you can split bolt a bonding jumper and take it to your water pipe.

    If the water pipe bond wire is the one going to the panel you cannot splitbolt the GEC to it.

    It's so much easier when we have all the tools and materials to do the job "right" and not worry about a few feet of wire :)
  15. Bob NH

    Bob NH In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,317
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    If there is an underground water pipe with at least 10 ft in contact with earth, that IS the grounding electrode, and the ground rods are SUPPLEMENTAL ELECTRODES. See 250.53(D)(2). "The supplemental electrode shall be permitted to be bonded to the grounding electrode conductor, the grounded service conductor, the non-flexible grounded service raceway, or any grounded service enclosure." There is nothing that requires the supplemental electrodes to be connected in any enclosure. It may be split-bolted to the GEC or the grounded service conductor, or attached to the grounded service raceway or the grounded service enclosure.
  16. Bob NH.....thank you very informative

    Bob.....While you are looking up those grounding requirements.......


    what does it say when the incomming water line to the home is PLASTIC or pvc some nature??? That certainly breaks the secondary ground for the home....

    Or the Water conditioner has been tied into the system with plastic teees and has broken the ground to the city copper water service??

    We run into this issue all the time and it seems that the
    water heaters in the home somehow get attacked and die a quick death ... the copper ground across the pipes somehow becomming a back up ground for the system...

    is their anything that claims would relieve this problem??
  17. Speedy Petey

    Speedy Petey Licensed Electrical Contractor

    Messages:
    988
    Location:
    NY State, USA
    No, it simply means there is no water pipe electrode to use. You still need a water pipe bond if the water piping system in the house is metallic (copper).
    If a metallic water pipe feeding the house did exist it MUST be used as the PRIMARY electrode.




    The there MUST be a jumper around the plastic fittings or any meter, etc that is removable.
  18. Lakee911

    Lakee911 I&C Engineer (mostly WWTP)

    Messages:
    1,328
    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    Does every metal fitting need to be grounded? What if you ran the house with PEX and then used copper stubouts at the fixtures ... do they need grounded?

    Jason
  19. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

    Messages:
    2,529
    Location:
    North Carolina

    NO .
  20. Mikey

    Mikey Aspiring Old Fart, EE, computer & networking geek

    Messages:
    2,713
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Another variant: my house was originally plumbed with copper, which failed after 30 years under the slab. The old pipe is still in place, although unused (the house is now plumbed overhead with CPVC), but is still used as the primary electrode.
Similar Threads: Bonding ground
Forum Title Date
Electrical Forum discussion & Blog Grounding, bonding, old swimming pool Feb 23, 2014
Electrical Forum discussion & Blog 2 grounding/bonding questions Feb 14, 2014
Electrical Forum discussion & Blog Grounding electrode/bonding question Oct 10, 2012
Electrical Forum discussion & Blog Grounding or Bonding Jetted Bathtub May 3, 2012
Electrical Forum discussion & Blog Grounding Whirlpool Tub Motor and Heater - Bonding Panel to Electric Water Heater Feb 5, 2012

Share This Page