Birthright Citizenship?

Discussion in 'Computers and Stuff' started by Cookie, Aug 12, 2010.

  1. Cookie

    Cookie .

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    By Peter Grier Peter Grier – Wed Aug 11, 5:14 pm ET

    Washington – Is “birthright citizenship†– the policy of granting US citizenship to every child born on national soil – really enshrined in the US Constitution? Some experts believe it isn’t.

    Congress, they say, could regulate who qualifies for birthright citizenship via legislation, within limits. Lawmakers might deny it to children born in the US to illegal immigrants, for example.

    This could be an important legal distinction. Circumscribing birthright citizenship with a bill would be very difficult, particularly while President Obama remains in office. But doing the same thing via the direct route of amending the Constitution would be virtually impossible.

    “We do not need to amend the Constitution to end birthright citizenship,†said Rep. Lamar Smith (R) of Texas in a statement issued Tuesday.

    Birthright citizenship is a hot topic in Washington nowadays because some congressional Republicans have become increasingly vocal about a desire to deny such status to the children of parents who are residing in the US illegally. The GOP leaders of both the House and Senate have said they favor holding hearings on the issue, at the least.

    Many legal scholars believe that changing the policy would require changing the 14th Amendment to the Constitution, on which birthright citizenship is based. But “many†legal scholars is not the same thing as “all.â€

    Section 1 of the 14th Amendment begins this way: “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

    The key phrase here is subject to the jurisdiction thereof.

    Illegal immigrants are not subject to US jurisdiction, in the sense that they cannot be drafted into the US military or tried for treason against the US, said John Eastman, a professor at the Chapman University School of Law, in a media conference call Monday. Their children would share that status, via citizenship in their parents’ nation or nations of birth – and so would not be eligible for a US passport, even if born on US soil, according to Dr. Eastman.

    Furthermore, federal courts have upheld the right of Congress to regulate naturalization policies over and above the basic constitutional guarantee, according to Eastman. Taken together, he says, all this means lawmakers, if they choose, could deny birthright citizenship to the children of parents here illegally.

    “The 14th Amendment is a floor, but how far above that floor we go is a matter of basic policy judgment that our Constitution assigns exclusively to the Congress of the United States,â€

    Perhaps the defining Supreme Court ruling in this area is US v. Wong Kim Ark, an 1898 case in which justices upheld the US citizenship of a child born on US soil to Chinese immigrant parents. The parents were in the US legally, however.

    “The courts apparently have never ruled on the specific [issue] of whether the native-born child of illegal aliens as opposed to the child of lawfully present aliens may be a US citizen,†concludes a 2005 Congressional Research Service report on birthright citizenship.

    Defenders of the current US interpretation of birthright citizenship say that a century of legal precedents supports their view that it is defined by the Constitution itself and is beyond the reach of congressional reinterpretation.

    The wording of the 14th Amendment means what it says, they say. The “subject to the jurisdiction†phrase today excludes the children of diplomats, who are immune from most US civil and criminal laws by treaty.

    “Those who want to read it narrowly ... are simply wrong,†said Elizabeth Wydra, chief counsel of the Constitutional Accountability Center, in a recent conference call.
  2. nhmaster3015

    nhmaster3015 Master Plumber

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    The thing keep in mind is that when the original law was signed, there is no way that they could have anticipated the swarm of illegals crossing our boarder. this country has always had a policy of welcoming immigrants to it's soil but not without condition.
  3. Ian Gills

    Ian Gills Senior Robin Hood Guy

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    This Nation was founded by British people coming here and setting up shop.

    So I say, let 'em in.

    I'm here and I intend to have an American baby that also has a British passport.

    That way they can earn the wages here, and get all the decent healthcare, education and retirement benefits they need in Europe. Wouldn't want my children dying sick, poor and stupid in America.

    America is a great place to work but a lousy place to live.
  4. Cookie

    Cookie .

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    I can agree with that and disagree with it Ian. I can find it a lousy place to live when I think of what happened to my husband. He died from undiagnosed high blood pressure and yet, who cares about this but me. Sure, if it was disclosed in a timely enough fashion, where the statutes did not run out, every lawyer would had cared. But, find one after the fact. Find a lawyer who cares enough to challenge the statutes with me due to extenuating circumstances. I think it is a pretty lousy place to live when I was fighting for my life due to cancer and this made the fifth time when he died, was finishing raising and educating our sons, and maintaining a house nicknamed the Money pit when it was literally crashing in on me. I did what I had to do to make ends meet, which was difficult also being so sick, watching my kids grieve for their dad and not knowing what to do, and feeling so isolated & afraid with thoughts, my God ... what if... I should die. It became a pretty lousy place to live when I figured out due to his medical records what happened to him, and I felt pretty lousy when I couldn't save his life that night. Our justice system can stink to high heaven because of people who look the other way because it is easy. My life has been far from easy. My sons lives has been far from easy. And, for my husband he met the ultimate in medical negligence, a doctor who didn't do his job. That is really lousy. He gets to go home every night and sees his wife, has dinner with her, his sons sees their dad. I sit and have to tell myself through the blinding anger I have that I am alive for my sons. I am here for them. And, I have to live with the fact that my husband and I will probably never have any justice, this doctor will go about his life like he did nothing wrong and never be held accountable while he messed up mine so badly, I can't breathe at times. But, I am strong, I found that out. And, I do anything I put my mind to. And, I will never give up trying to make him accountable for taking away my kids dad, for making my life so lousy and taking away my laughter that I so did treasure. I have come to the conclusiong that I will never stop greiving as long as I have this anger inside of me, and to rid myself of that anger he must tell me why he didnt do what he should had done. Why he left my husband be a walking time bomb. And, when he blew up, in our basement, he left me struggling trying to bring him back. He owes me that.

    Yes, it can be a lousy place to live when no ones cares enough. I have asked people here to send an email on my behalf to my state senator stating we need Tim's Law. This will make it mandatory that this will not happen again. In my eyes, it will make it a better place to live.

    I have been contacted by a judge who said he will help me challenge it, but I am still waiting, and waiting... I have been in remission from cancer now since he passed away, so, maybe he is up in heaven saying, " God give my wife a break she is a really nice lady." He was my number #1 supporter and never left my side. I only hope I can continue to stave it off long enough to see Tim's Law passed because it is important to me that this never happens again to anyone else.

    Yeah, Ian, the states can be a lousy place to live, but then... we can make it better.

    Regina_Campbell@specter.senate.gov
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2010
  5. Cookie

    Cookie .

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    "Birthing Tourism"
    ABC NEWS, Yahoo
    Sept. 02, 2010

    By BOB CHRISTIE and PAUL J. WEBER, Associated Press Writers Bob Christie And Paul J. Weber, Associated Press Writers

    SAN JUAN, Texas – When Ruth Garcia's twins are born in two months, they'll have all the rights of U.S. citizens. They and their six brothers and sisters will be able to vote, apply for federal student loans and even run for president.

    Garcia is an illegal immigrant who crossed into the country about 14 years ago, and the citizenship granted to her children and millions others like them is at the center of a divisive national debate.

    Republicans are pushing for congressional hearings to consider changing the nation's 14th Amendment to deny such children the automatic citizenship the Constitution guarantees. They say women like Garcia are taking advantage of a constitutional amendment meant to guarantee the rights of freed slaves, and paint a picture of pregnant women rushing across the border to give birth.

    A closer examination of the issue shows that the trend is not as dramatic as some immigration opponents have claimed.

    Most illegal immigrants are born to parents like Garcia who have made the United States their home for years.

    Out of 340,000 babies born to illegal immigrants in the United States in 2008, 85 percent of the parents had been in the country for more than a year, and more than half for at least five years, according to recent study from the Pew Hispanic Center.

    And immigration experts say it's extraordinarily rare for immigrants to come to the U.S. just so they can have babies and get citizenship. In most cases, they come to the U.S. for economic reasons and better hospitals, and end up staying and raising families.

    Garcia crossed into the U.S. illegally about 14 years ago, before her children were born, and her husband has since been deported. She earns a living by selling tamales to other immigrants who live in fear of being deported from the slapdash, impoverished colonias that dot the Texas-Mexico border.

    "I think that children aren't at fault for having been born here," Garcia said. "My children always have lived here. They've never gone to another country."

    Under current immigration law, Garcia and others like her don't get U.S. citizenship even though their children are Americans.

    With an estimated 11.1 million illegal immigrants living in the United States, the issue strikes a chord with many voters — people like retired Air Force nurse and pediatric nurse practitioner Susan Struck, 66, of Double Adobe, Ariz.

    "People come over ... and they have babies with U.S. birth certificates, then they go back over the border with that Social Security number, with that birth certificate," and have access to public services, she said at a recent event near the border organized by conservative tea party activists.

    Several prominent Republican leaders share Struck's beliefs on the issue. Sen. Lindsay Graham of South Carolina has been a vocal advocate for changing the Constitution, and he helped the issue gain momentum heading into the midterm elections.

    "Women have traveled from across the world for the purpose of adding a U.S. passport holder to their family, as far away as China, Turkey and as close as Mexico," said Jon Feere, legal analyst for the Center for Immigration Studies, which advocates for strict immigration laws.

    Still, changing the Constitution is highly unlikely, legal scholars say. Measures have been introduced in each two-year congressional session since 2005, but none has made it out of committee. Constitutional changes require approval by two-thirds majorities in both chambers of Congress, an impossibility now because Democrats have the majority in both houses and most oppose such a measure. Even if that changes after November and legislation is passed, an amendment would still need to be ratified by three-fourths of the states.

    To be sure, some pregnant Mexican women do come to the United States. In border cities like Nogales, women have been coming to the U.S. for decades to give birth, although the primary reason is better medical care, Santa Cruz County sheriff Tony Estrada said. Billboards advertising birthing services in Arizona line streets across the border in Nogales, Mexico.

    Tucson Medical Center, 115 miles southeast of Phoenix, offers packages designed to provide inclusive care to new mothers. The program draws some residents of the northern Mexican state of Sonora who can afford its upfront costs and already have U.S. visas, spokesman Michael Letson said.

    Princeton University demographer Douglas Massey said in 30 years studying Mexican immigration, he's never interviewed a migrant who said they came to the United States just to get citizenship for their children.

    "Mexicans do not come to have babies in the United States," said Massey, who blames the tightening of the border in the 1990s for cutting off normal migration of men who used to come to work for a year or two and then go home. "They end up having babies in the United States because men can no longer circulate freely back and forth from homes in Mexico to jobs in the United States and husbands and wives quite understandably want to be together."

    More common, he and other experts says, are a families stuck with one child who is legal and others who aren't — like Beatriz Gomez, a 35-year-old illegal immigrant who came to Phoenix 11 years ago on a now-expired tourist visa from Arriaga in the Mexican state of Chiapas.

    Her 12-year-old daughter was born in Mexico and is here illegally, but her two youngest children, ages 8 and 5, were born in the U.S. and are citizens.

    "It's sad," Gomez said of her oldest daughter, who was only 1 when the family came to the United States. "She studies hard, and she won't be able to go to a university like the other two."
    ~~~~~
    ... and if we should stumble into some other countries, we are thrown into prison and ex-presidents has to come and get us out.
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2010
  6. Ian Gills

    Ian Gills Senior Robin Hood Guy

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    Oooooooooooooo big deal.

    I like the fact that there is no mention of the fact that you don't even get your schooling or medical paid as an American.

    The best you can hope for here is to become President. And at my last count, there was only one.

    Nobody comes to America to have an American child because there are no benefits in doing so. Nobody is screwing the system because there is no system to screw here.

    Now in Europe, that might be a different matter. There, they value human life, dignity and citizenship.

    Here, if you are born poor you end up stupid and sick. No parent wishes that on their child.

    The only reason you come to America is to work. Once that is done, you leave for a better life.
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2010
  7. Cookie

    Cookie .

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    Actually, along with Federal Loans are Federal Grants...
    They can also get medical paid for through Welfare, get food stamps, housing, etc paid for.

    I wonder, when we stumble into another country illegally, would our children become citizens and be taken care of?

    It is truly amazing how many people come here for education and take the knowledge gained here, through loans and grants and profit their country.

    I don't know of any other country that is so widely used as the United States. Where are people's morals and scruples is my question.
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2010
  8. Ian Gills

    Ian Gills Senior Robin Hood Guy

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    Look, much of it is history. Very few of you are truely "American". Your ancestors came over on boats from England or Ireland or walked up from south of the border, so the birthright citizenship thing has been a way for you to square the circle and avoid facing up to the fact that you stole this land from England and the King.

    Now I'm here, like your ancestors, I might want my kids to be "American" too, just like you.

    What's the harm in that?

    Or was your great great great grandfather's boat better than my jet plane?
  9. Cookie

    Cookie .

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    If everyone is here legally, no problem. If they are not, then they shouldn't be here. People should be grateful to our country when they get an education here to take back with them, since if they got grants, we paid for their education; we paid for their pocket money, their lunches, their dorms, their off campus housing, their university fees, the fees to pay for their parking, their books, their lab fees; they had taken up spaces in the classrooms from pre- school to college level when their are only so many to be had; my son couldn't get into our state university, trying for 2 years, due to no more space available. He ended up in a college for missionaries, a private catholic one, because of it. We paid more money because of the lack of spaces in the state universities. MANY students there are not from the United States. Many.

    If someone is here working making money, be grateful for the job because someone rightfully, born here, might not be able to find one due to the lack of them. You gain the money and the experience to take back with you to spend or use in your country. There are many people and only so many jobs here. It smacks a little bit to know the job you want is filled, by a foreigner. And, you are up against this over and over.

    What I don't understand is if the United States is such a crappy place, why would you want your kid to be an American and, why take a job here? I would think you would want to make it in your own country and be proud. To me that is an honorable thing to do.

    ... I am Irish, but my father's mother was a Seneca Indian she didn't row a boat. She was related to Guyasuta, that was her name.

    Let's see how well you know our history? ;)
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2010
  10. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

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    For nearly 200 years, England ruled over 500 million people on six continents. This was a time when people said the sun never set on the British Empire. Today however, the sun sets on the British Empire at precisely 8:02 PM BST.

    You'll just have to get over it....
  11. Ian Gills

    Ian Gills Senior Robin Hood Guy

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    I would just like to see our legacy to you left in good hands. That's all.

    This is what we left you:

    [​IMG]

    and by the time I get here this is what you've done to it:

    [​IMG]

    Sigh.
  12. Cookie

    Cookie .

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    I bet a bloody englishmen DIY 'er did that, lol.
  13. Ian Gills

    Ian Gills Senior Robin Hood Guy

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    Good. That's settled then. Everyone is welcome and everyone can stay.
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2010
  14. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

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    Ummm Ian, You don't have a vote....
  15. Ian Gills

    Ian Gills Senior Robin Hood Guy

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    Oh but my children will Redwood. One day. All of them. The English taking back control from the inside. First with a bit of land here and there. Then, slowly, the Government.
    It's just so easy!
  16. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

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    I got news for you...
    Make sure they speak fluent Spanish...
    They will need it...
  17. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

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    Congress and the Supreme Court are constantly "revising/interpreting" the Constitution to make it say what they want it to, so this would not be anything other than "business as usual".
  18. Ian Gills

    Ian Gills Senior Robin Hood Guy

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    i.e. the American people.

    Strangely enough - long term - I think Latino immigrants are now the only way the country can get out of the hole it is in. We've got to lower costs, and immigration from south of the border is probably the only way we will do it.

    Technology is the other way. Specifically green. But that will require taxing energy. And while I don't seem to mind paying taxes, the rest of you do. It must be a Master Plumber thing with their "short arms" and "deep pockets". An Irish plumber at tax time must feel particularly unhappy.

    Sigh.
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2010
  19. Cookie

    Cookie .

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    So, true. Can't even go though the ATM or call anywhere without it saying, English or spanish? This is America, we speak English. Besa me culo.


  20. Ian Gills

    Ian Gills Senior Robin Hood Guy

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    No, you speak American.

    I speak English....the Queen's English.

    [video=youtube;EuPsoPIzRXQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuPsoPIzRXQ[/video]

    [video=youtube;P-CGQh6bpJQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-CGQh6bpJQ&feature=related[/video]
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2010

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