Best Wax or Wax-Free Toilet Seal

[Brian Hartman]

Just trying to get a sense of current thoughts on the various toilet seals out there today. Among these are the standard wax ring, the Danco Perfect Seal, the Fernco Wax Free Seal, the Sani Seal, and the Fluidmaster Wax Free Gasket. I've seen a lot of positive reviews of many of these, but am unsure of their long-term performance. Any thoughts?

 

[Standardairconditioner]

All those have been discussed here in the forums here.

Best you search for them.

You'll get more feedback from past reviews than waiting now for new reviews.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Brian Hartman]

I see some of the previous posts regarding this, but they are at least half a year old. I think this is a topic that can be raised a couple times a year to see if there has been any change in trends or any more information on performance and longevity. Are all professionals still using wax, or is that starting to change, and if so, what is the most popular wax-free product...?

 

[Reach4]

No big changes in that time. Professionals tend to use wax, because they have the experience to set the toilet down right the first time. Wax is not good if you need to lift the toilet back up to reposition or to insert shims after rocking or tilting is detected. You need to compress and not try to decompress the wax.

Are you planning to become a professional, or are you going to stay a DIY who may not get it right the first time 95% of the time? If the space between the flange and the toilet is unusually tight, then wax is the way to go. If you thought you may be pulling that toilet for some rework, the waxless solutions would be good for anybody. I am not a pro. I used wax under the Unifit I installed because it could be formed to my unusual installation. I would use wax for a Unifit install, even if my installation ordinary. The Unifit adapter stayed in place as I shimmed my toilet to level it, and I did not have to worry about damaging the wax seal in the process.

Were you taking some kind of survey that did not involve planning a specific project?

 

[Jadnashua]

Installed properly, wax is cheap, reliable, and efficient. The waxless choices make frequent removal for say remodeling or painting or whatever quicker and easier since you can reuse the seal. If the pipe and/or flange is old and not perfect, a waxless seal may not work properly whereas a wax ring would. You have to pick and choose. For the cost of one waxless seal, you can buy numerous wax rings, so ultimately, while convenience may improve, if the bottom line is important, wax wins. For most people, the toilet gets set, and left until they want to remodel and replace it. The rubber in the waxless seals should be reliable long-term, but I doubt it will match up with wax. Most people probably remodel within the lifetime of the rubber seals in the waxless, so it probably isn't an issue.

 

[Brian Hartman]

I am not a pro. I'm just replacing three builder grade toilets in our new construction home with something that looks and performs better. I don't have any experience with toilet installs, so am hesitant to use wax. That being said, I'm a seasoned DIY'er so not afraid to do the installs myself. I just see both good and bad reviews of the wax-free options. Maybe the bad reviews are from people who aren't using them properly. The last thing I want is a leak from the 2nd story bathroom in the new house!

 

[Gary Swart]

The only comment I would make about wax vs wax-less is that while either will seal just fine, wax is unforgiving on movement. You can't put the toilet down and then have to shift it or reset it. If you secure the flange bolts to the flange with a couple of extra nuts, the toilet can easily be set down straight and not require adjusting.

 

[Jadnashua]

IF the flange is installed properly and the wax is as well, it will make a solid, long-lasting seal. Terry has a quick tutorial on how to install a toilet. Read that, and if you have questions, ask. The real magic is two-fold: see if the toilet sits flat by doing a trial fitting without the seal and if not, shim it so it does. Then, reset it with the wax. If you have to push the toilet down so it hits the floor, you will have made a good seal. If you do not, the flange is probably too low, and you may need a jumbo or double wax ring. FWIW, the design position of a toilet flange is on TOP of the FINISHED floor, and tight to it with no gaps. If yours is not there, you may need two wax rings if it is low. Depends on how low it is. Builders often put the flange in during rough-in, prior to the finished flooring to save money and time. Millions installed like that. IT's better to be on top of the finished floor, but not essential, as long as it's not radically low.

 

[Reach4]

My thinking is that once you inspect the new toilet and pull the old toilet, your plans could change. Suppose I had a Sani Seal ready, but when I got in there, I found the distance represented by the green arrow to be too small? I would switch to wax. Now what is too small? I don't know. If you try it and the toilet rocks on the saniseal without the toilet base hitting in at least two points, I would pull the Saniseal, and switch to wax. That seems to be fairly uncommon, but it appears to happen sometimes. If the flange was pretty far down, I might look at the Danco 10718X Perfect Seal Toilet Wax Ring. Korky Korky 6000BP Toilet Wax Free 3" Rubber Seal Kit may be worth looking at. If you use wax, and your flange is recessed, you need to use more wax.

You will want to use shims, and you will want to apply an acrylic caulk around maybe 85% of the base. Search for "polyseamseal" in the search for this forum. I would use a level on the bowl rim for two directions and optimize with shims, but that may be unneeded. Keep at least part of the base in contact to the floor. Usually you get the front in contact with the floor.

 

[Plumbs Away]

Just trying to get a sense of current thoughts on the various toilet seals out there today. Among these are the standard wax ring, the Danco Perfect Seal, the Fernco Wax Free Seal, the Sani Seal, and the Fluidmaster Wax Free Gasket. I've seen a lot of positive reviews of many of these, but am unsure of their long-term performance. Any thoughts?

Though I'm not a professional, I do a lot of toilet installs. I prefer not using wax, primarily because wax is messy and is much more prone to fail. It's been my experience that the nuts securing the bowl to the floor bolts will often loosen over time and the bowl will shift and break the wax seal. The waxless seal will not break. Although there could be leaking due to bowl shift, just retighten the bolts without having to pull the bowl and replace the wax (unless, of course, the leaking has been substantial enough to cause structural damage).

That being said, I was a big fan of the Sani Seal until I had to pull a toilet where a Sani Seal had been used about six months previously. The green vinyl cover of the seal had split at the seams and the foam interior of the seal was saturated. It hadn't caused any problem, but it didn't seem right to me. The Sani Seal is also extraordinarily thick, which has its advantages and disadvantages.

My waxless of choice is the Fluidmaster 7530P8 for about $8.00, which includes brass bolts and a spacer for increased height if you need it.

 

[Jadnashua]

If your toilet is sitting flat on the floor without rocking and you seal around it, a wax seal should last indefinitely. Any time that there is movement, something is wrong, and if you did use wax, you'll need to fix the problem and replace the wax. It's just the nature of the thing. While I have used waxless seals and they work, you could likely buy 4-5 or more wax seals for the cost of one waxless, so even if you do need to pull the toilet for some reason, at least money out of pocket, you'd likely still be ahead.

 

[Brian Hartman]

If your toilet is sitting flat on the floor without rocking and you seal around it, a wax seal should last indefinitely. Any time that there is movement, something is wrong, and if you did use wax, you'll need to fix the problem and replace the wax. It's just the nature of the thing. While I have used waxless seals and they work, you could likely buy 4-5 or more wax seals for the cost of one waxless, so even if you do need to pull the toilet for some reason, at least money out of pocket, you'd likely still be ahead.

I'm not concerned about a $5 difference. If wax-free is the way to go, I'd rather do that. I think I'll avoid any product with foam as I've seen many bad reviews.

 

[Jadnashua]

Many man-made plastics and rubbers will last a long time, but beeswax will probably outlast them all. Some of the waxless systems are flexible and can withstand movement, but not all. Use what makes you happy...there is no one 'best'.

 

[Hated DIY & engineer]

I bought/ tried to use the Danco waxless seal with a1.28gpf Toto Drake. Ended up ripping it up and going straight wax. And it ISN'T WAXLESS! Is just that the wax is between the closet flange and the rubber boot. It lets you adjust/ remove toilet as needed. I ended up having to remove the wax mess for a BRAND NEW install.

The box claims it works on all toilets. I saw a post warning about distance of the toilets exit lip to the floor height. I thought I was close. ..but no cigar. I removed the extension ring Danco provides, so KNOW I was working with the lowest profile option they have. My closet flange ring sits ON THE FINISHED tile,not flush, hence the problem. If your flange is flush,is likely a good product. If your closet flange sticks above, it may or may not work.

I hear the Fluidmaster waxless version is good, but I already had the FM wax ring on hand at midnight so used that. Easy, no problems. The Pros here go with wax for a reason. ...

 

[botnik]

I am replacing three old toilets (not low flow) in my home with three Toto Drakes. I decided to use the Fernco FTS-3 waxless seals. The local shop had only two in stock so I bought both of them and ordered another one.

For the first bowl, I lightly sanded the area around the horn, vacuumed the debris, and then stuck the first FTS-3 (four barbs on the tube) onto the toilet. I was impressed by how well the adhesive stuck onto the ceramic. I made sure there was a good seal all the way around, and then put liquid soap on the barbs and put the toilet down. I positioned the toilet and put all the shims in, and I was happy. Then I noticed some water leaking out between the rear of the bowl and the floor. I was puzzled, because it was a new toilet that shouldn't have water in it, and I didn't have any water or anything hooked up (the tank was still in the box). I lifted the toilet to investigate.

The toilet came up and the FTS-3 stayed in the drain pipe. It seemed to have caught on some burrs at the top of the drain pipe. The adhesive all stayed on the ceramic, and it came cleanly off the FTS-3.

I removed the FTS-3 from the drain pipe and cleaned it thoroughly with soap and water, and then I dried it with a heat gun (gently but thorough). I tried to re-stick the FTS-3 onto the adhesive that was on the ceramic, but it wouldn't stick that well any more. So I had to pick the adhesive off the ceramic. I took out the second FTS-3, and it had only two barbs on the tube, and the adhesive was not neatly applied to the top of the FTS-3. It was like someone put the adhesive on there by hand from a squeeze tube or something. I put this second FTS-3 onto the toilet and made sure there was a good seal all the way around. It didn't seem to stick as well as the first one. This one had some visible bubbles in the adhesive, which I think were some weak parts.

I investigated the water on the floor and my best guess is that it was water that I somehow missed when I cleaned up after removing the first toilet and/or replacing the braided riser. I dried the floor and put liquid soap onto the FTS-3, and put the toilet down again. This time I was not able to get the FTS-3 to enter the drain pipe. Eventually after fudging around this FTS-3 also came unstuck from the ceramic.

I now have no toilet seals left and have to go shopping again in the morning (it's now 12:48 am). I am guessing that the two-barb FTS-3 is an older revision and Fernco has improved their production line and the four-barb version is newer, but that's just a guess. I am also considering that these seals (this particular model anyway) is a one-shot deal like wax. Maybe in a perfect laboratory environment with a smooth new drain pipe and a level floor that doesn't apply any pressure on the FTS-3 except towards the ceramic, this seal would work perfectly. However, I think if you can place the toilet on the first shot without having to lift it, then the FTS-3 is much better than wax at tolerating some wiggling to insert shims, wiggling to see if the toilet wiggles, etc.. Maybe if there were some sort of gentle force that applied some tension trying to pull the FTS-3 away from the ceramic, it would eventually come off. I don't think it's perfect, but I think it's better than wax. But if your floor is really crooked, or the drain pipe is crooked which would apply sideways force to the FTS-3, maybe wax would be better. I don't know.

I'm just a homeowner, and have installed toilets in the past using wax, and this is the first time I have ever tried these waxless seals. I looked at the Sani Seal and the Fluidmaster and chose the Fernco because I think it's the best design out of the available wax-free seals. I am least confident in the adhesive on the FTS-3. I wish there was something like the FTS-3, except instead of peel-and-stick, you used some sort of cement, like you use to put PVC pipes together. When you use that PVC cement, the resulting pipe fixture seems bulletproof. Something like that to attach the FTS-3 (or FTS-4 etc. depending on the size of the drain pipe) would be so nice to have. It could just come in e.g. a ketchup packet thing in the bag.

Tomorrow morning I am going to go out and buy some more FTS-3 seals, and maybe I'll buy a couple extras. And I'll have to wash the dish soap off the bottom of the ceramic, dry it with a heat gun, and try again. I will try to buy FTS-3 seals that have the four barbs, because I couldn't get the two-barb version to go into the drain pipe (I don't know why).

 

[botnik]

Okay I just wanted to follow up to my post the other day.

I bought more FTS-3 seals and didn't get another installation I felt comfortable with (that I was able to "feel the seal" (as they say on their advertising) with) until the fifth or sixth installation. Each attempt cost me a new seal. Each failure was the glue coming off of the rubber part of the FTS-3.

Finally I got that first toilet installed and it required a lot of shims. The old toilet was a 30-year-old American Standard toilet. The new toilet is a Toto Drake. I don't know if the Toto just sits on the floor differently or if the FTS-3 was causing a high point in the centre. The toilet is fully installed and is working fine, I wiped the floor down with bleach, everything is cleaned up and my family is using that washroom again.

Tonight after dinner I tried installing a second Toto Drake in another washroom. Again, the FTS-3 failed with the glue coming off the rubber part and sticking to the ceramic. I don't want to dig around outside but there are five or six of these things in the garbage, and they're $7.77 each before tax (Vancouver BC) and I have seen them for approx $15 in some of the big-box stores.

I was very upset tonight. There are so many shims under the toilet that I can insert my fingers past the first knuckle under the back of the toilet. If I don't have that much shimming, the toilet rocks. After seating the toilet on the FTS-3, I was tightening the flange bolts and heard a pop. I was afraid I had cracked the ceramic but I wasn't tightening that much. I thought I might have pulled the bolt out of the flange on the floor (the flange is plastic) but again, I wasn't applying much force at all. I looked through the hole and got very angry because I saw that the FTS-3 was not attached to the toilet any more!

What a big waste of time and effort and money this has been. I have had no problems with wax seals in the past but because the wax seals seem so hokey I was eager to find something better. Tomorrow I am going to go out and get some wax seals and return all my unused Fernco wax-free seals. And for that toilet that is already installed, I am probably going to uninstall it, remove the Fernco seal, throw it as far as I can, and replace it with a wax gasket. I might as well do that now because I don't want to go forward not trusting the ... tape, essentially, seal between the FTS-3 and the toilet. Is that going to last years? I don't have confidence in it. And with the wax seals, I'll probably be able to squish the toilets down and not require so much shimming.

 

[Larry S]

...Finally I got that first toilet installed and it required a lot of shims....

...I'll probably be able to squish the toilets down and not require so much shimming.

I'm far from an expert - just a homeowner DIYer whose toilet installations are many years apart. But I read someplace (I think somewhere on this website) that the best way to fit and shim the toilet is a test fit before applying any seal. The toilet should sit in the floor and not be supported by the rim at all. Tape the ships to the floor before breaking/cutting the excess off. Then put the seal on and with the seal it should sit the same way.

 

[CountryBumkin]

I have been reading this thread with great interest. As a DIYer I don't get much practice setting toilets, but when I need to do one, I want it to be right the first time.

I am actually pulling a toilet tonight (doing tile job in bathroom) and I'm going to use the Sani-Seal. From what I've read, it gets good reviews. This seal gets installed on the flange (not toilet horn) so it should be easy to align (uses toilet mounting bolts) and should stay in place.

If anyone here has experience or comments on this seal, please reply.

 

[botnik]

I'm far from an expert - just a homeowner DIYer whose toilet installations are many years apart. But I read someplace (I think somewhere on this website) that the best way to fit and shim the toilet is a test fit before applying any seal. The toilet should sit in the floor and not be supported by the rim at all. Tape the ships to the floor before breaking/cutting the excess off. Then put the seal on and with the seal it should sit the same way.

That's how I've done the installs with wax in the past but good idea about taping the shims. Thanks!

 

[Standardairconditioner]

If anyone here has experience or comments on this seal, please reply.

18 months ago, I did a tile job that raised the toilet a good 3/4" inch, so a Sani-Seal was used instead of a double or thick ring.

So far so good, but that Sani-Seal is REALLY spongy and I don't know how long it will take before the nice vulcanized layer on the outside decomposes away to reveal a supple sponge on the inside.

Because of that thought, I did place a Danco HydroCap on top of that, so less greywater would be hitting the Sani-Seal.

Worse case senario? It fails, we pull the toilet, and replace it with whatever fancy space-age non-wax ring on the present market.

The ease of dealing with the problem is worth the risk in trying "new stuff".