Basement remodel - bar sink, utility sink - design

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & ' started by jbrinker, Oct 13, 2009.

  1. jbrinker

    jbrinker New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Location:
    upstate NY
    I am at the early stages of a basement remodel. In fact, right now I am just gluing hardboard insulation to the perimeter walls. However, over the winter I'd like to start the finishing process, and there will be some plumbing involved.

    (partial plan attached - no plumbing shown, but the sinks are)

    In the zoon in I attached, the main drain stack is behind the washing machine. The exit is about 3" above the slab, through the wall at the top of the drawing. Currently, there is a utility sink plumbed in via some adapters that screw into the main cleanout. I'd like to remove this, and plumb in the three new sinks shown - one sink in the washing room (just a countertop sink - like kitchen sink in the countertop), one small bar sink located at the bottom of the picture in the kitchenette/bar, and one utility sink in my workroom.

    Currently the existing utility sink is not vented. There appears no place to connect to an existing vent line. I would probably have to use an AAV someplace.

    My thought is to extend around the perimeter wall a 2" drain line, picking up the wash sink, around the corner extending to the utility sink in the workroom. Near the corner hook in the bar sink on a branch. I didnt dimension this drawing, but from the cleanout/stack to the corner is about 4', from the corner to the outsize corner near the fridge, is about 12', and from that corner to the utility sink in the workroom is about another 12'. From the outside corner, to the bar sink (the branch) would be anywhere from 3-10' depending on the final layout.

    I'm not a plumber, but I do have a decent plumbing book, and I will have a licensed plumber check out my work. I just want to get an idea if this will work, and get the basic layout down before I start any real remodel work. (Slope, where to put AAV, size of drain lines, etc)


    Edit: I added the proposed route in RED, big red circle is the stack/cleanout location.

    Any advice appreciated.
    Jeff

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Oct 13, 2009
  2. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

    Messages:
    3,189
    Location:
    S. Maine
    And you want to vent all of that with aav's ?
  3. FloridaOrange

    FloridaOrange Plumbing Designer

    Messages:
    1,317
    Location:
    SW Florida
    And do you also realize 27-35 feet of piping will all have to be at 1/4" per foot slope? All this will be above slab?
  4. johnjh2o1

    johnjh2o1 Plumbing Contractor for 49 years

    Messages:
    1,143
    Location:
    South*East
    Each fixture needs to be vented. They vents can be tied together in the basement. Then run through the roof.

    John
  5. jbrinker

    jbrinker New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Location:
    upstate NY
    OK, so I have caused some confusion, and I'm a rookie obviously.

    1) Yes, this is all above slab, the main sewer line exits about 3" above the slab (bottom of pipe is 3" above slab). If I were to tie in as the current "utility" sink is, the bottom of that 1.5" drain pipe is about 8" above the floor where it connects.

    The first sink, the wash room sink, is about 10' away. The next, the bar sink is about 16' + let's say 4' off the wye. The workroom sink would be the furthest, at 28 feet. So, 28 * 0.25 = 7 inches. 7 + 8 = 15" above slab. Is this doable? What if I used 3" pipe, can I then slope at 1/8"?

    2) Venting... This is what I'm not so sure about. There is no existing vent line I can tie into in the basement, or accessible in any reasonable way. Can I use an AAV? (Tie all the vents together to one big AAV?) or can I sidewall vent it? I have a location where I could vent out the sidewall (rim joist) of the basement. Is that possible? I could go back toward the stack, and exit that front wall of the house under the porch, or I could go toward the work-room end and exit that end of the house in back of our shrubs.

    The next thing I have questions about it how it is currently tied into the stack - looks very strange to me. I will take a picture and post, and find the correct way to do it if it should be done differently.

    I quite possibly will hire a plumber for this job, but I would like to know what I'm dealing with before I get into that, as well as know something about the codes as they pertain to this particular problem. I have a decent plumbing book (not a bible by any stretch) but interpreting what it's telling me is somewhat confusing, especially venting etc.
  6. Peanut9199

    Peanut9199 Customer Service Manager Plumbing Wholesale

    Messages:
    875
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
  7. johnjh2o1

    johnjh2o1 Plumbing Contractor for 49 years

    Messages:
    1,143
    Location:
    South*East
  8. Peanut9199

    Peanut9199 Customer Service Manager Plumbing Wholesale

    Messages:
    875
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Sorry i just went by the Manufacturers installation instructions, won't do that again.

    Last edited: Oct 14, 2009
  9. dcelite

    dcelite Plumber

    Messages:
    132
    Location:
    Los Gatos, CA
    You'll need to run 2" pipe at 1/4" per foot. 3" also needs to be 1/4" per foot. 15" above slab is not too high for a sink drain. As for venting, maybe you can run a vent in the corner of the ceiling and soffit around it. If you don't want to disturb the upstairs walls for venting, maybe you can run upstairs in the corner of a closet and soffit that in if you want to cover it up.
  10. FloridaOrange

    FloridaOrange Plumbing Designer

    Messages:
    1,317
    Location:
    SW Florida
    That would depend on NY Code. FL (and IPC) is 1/8" per foot on 3".
  11. jbrinker

    jbrinker New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Location:
    upstate NY
    I guess the best thing to do would be to consult a local guy - inspector or plumber. I measured things with a tape last night, and I think I will be right at about 18" rough-in height at the furthest fixture. It's a counter-top sink, and I can even make the counter higher than normal if needed.

    As for venting, there is just no practical way to get a vent out the roof. Not without ripping into walls upstairs (2 story house). I read the NY plumbing code, and it seems to me that sidewall venting is legal as long as the main stack is vented through the roof, and the sidewall vent is above any possible snow line. I think the safest, and best location for a sidewall vent would be near the stack location, out the front under the covered porch (lots of room under there, no snow).

    It's either that or AAV. Which would you do?

    FYI, the current utility sink is located in a different part of the basement (not shown, off the left side of the diagram). It is on 1.5", unvented, and probably a 20' run. It works fine for what it's used for but is clearly not up to code.

    I took a better look at the stack and cleanout. I really need to post a pic. But here is what is going on:

    Looks like a 4" stack, runs to a cleanout/Wye and exits the building horizontally about 3" (bottom of pipe) above slab. Where the cleanout plug would normally be is a 4" to 3" reducer, and into that is a 3" to 1.5" reducer. Into that runs 1.5" from the washing machine (which has a trap and is located right next to the stack but no vent). Into this same 1.5" line off a wye runs the 1.5" from the afore-mentioned utility sink in the next room over.

    I think this is obviously not code, as there is no accessable clean out anymore. (not without a lot of hassle). I think the washer was originally upstairs, as there is a connection box for it up there, and it was moved down as an afterthought, ditto the utility sink.

    What's the correct/easiest way to approach this? Can I come out of the 4" cleanout with a threaded adapter, and to some sort of 2" into 4" wye, then another cleanout? I need to post a pic.
  12. dcelite

    dcelite Plumber

    Messages:
    132
    Location:
    Los Gatos, CA
    Thanks. I didn't think there would be different codes on something like that. Out here only 4" and larger can be 1/8" per foot.
  13. dcelite

    dcelite Plumber

    Messages:
    132
    Location:
    Los Gatos, CA
    RE: Clean out: Sounds like you can install a 4" clean out tee in the stack above the existing wye that had the old clean out in it. Then you can run your new piping off the old clean out location.
  14. jbrinker

    jbrinker New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Location:
    upstate NY
    OK, Here's a picture of the base of the stack, and the "additions" that were made by the prior owner when they moved the washroom downstairs. The 1.5" that exits to the left goes about 20' to another room where the sink is. the washer as you can see drains through the trap into the wye and joins the sink.

    None of this appears to be vented at all.

    Wanting to conserve as much space and not come out any further into the room, what's the best way to approach this?

    In the new construction, the branch to the left will be gone, I will need to come off to the right. I will still need to drain the washer (pretty close to current location) the continue right, and around to the other sinks shown on the plan above.

    Could I remove the existing mess (reducing bushings etc) and install a new 4" cleanout T, with the "T" part facing right, and the cleanout pointing into the room (as it was originally). Something that has a 2" for the "T" part? Other ideas from those more experienced most appreciated.

    (Edit) I have to really clean it off and look, but what I think I have now is: 4" threaded cleanout, 4" to 3" reducing bushing, 3" to 1.5" reducing bushing, somehow (pipe nipple?) 1.5" elbow connected to that bushing. As you can see, no chance of doing much here except by reusing the 4" cleanout access. Perhaps I can remove all this, and "remove" the cleanout threading with a $" rambit? Then extend everything out the right way?

    Jeff

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Oct 19, 2009
  15. jbrinker

    jbrinker New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Location:
    upstate NY
    Attached a really really bad MS paint of what I was thinking. 4x2" sanitary T with 4" cleanout on end. 2" goes to a 90 elbow back towards wall, into a 2" sanitary T with the T into a trap for the washer, then back up vertical to the washer standpipe. Other side of the T continues back to the wall, 90 elbow back there along the wall to the other sinks.

    How many codes have I broken here?

    Attached Files:

  16. dcelite

    dcelite Plumber

    Messages:
    132
    Location:
    Los Gatos, CA
    Well, You still need to vent the trap for the washer. Also, remember on your 2" line you need a clean out for every 135 degrees of bends. You've got 180 degrees with the first two 90's.
  17. jbrinker

    jbrinker New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Location:
    upstate NY
    Ok, Update here. I took a break from the other basement remodel activites, moved the washer out and took a real good look.

    This is a cob-job to top all. Here's what is really there:

    Original cleanout T, that had (at one time) a 4" female cleanout adapter welded in.

    Prior owner sawed off the cleanout adapter (leaving about 1/4" of the pipe part sticking out), and used a threaded 3" male to 1.5" female slip adapter. This is "stuck" into the remaining "less than 4 inch" piece of pipe from the original cleanout adapter, with some sort of rubber gasket. It's simply a friction fit, and is only held in place by the maze of 1.5" plumbing for the washer and sink drain.

    (See pic)

    So, my thought is similar to what I was looking at before. A few questions:

    I'd like to use a 4"x4"x2" T as shown in the other drawing I did,
    Then to solve the cleanout issue, come out to a T, with one end facing forward and a 2" cleanout plug.

    Add vent for the washer, and route that back toward the wall too
    (Why does the washer have to be vented separately? Its so close to the stack, and there will be venting back up the pipe?)

    Jeff

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Oct 27, 2009
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