5600SXT reduce salt use

[GraniteState]

I recently installed a Katalox light iron filter (1.5cu ft with a Fleck 5600SXT) this was plumbed in front of my softener (also a 1.5 cu ft, Fleck 5600SXT). The softener was installed about a year ago but iron/manganese build up persisted, mostly noticeable in the toilets as a orange film, some times turning black that reappeared within days of a full cleaning of toilet tanks and re-gen of the resin with Rust-out, and the $8 green bag of salt from HD (the stuff for iron/rust).

Anyway I'm hoping the Katalox will solve my water issues and I have the DO set at 2 days to start. I would think I can dial back my salt use now that the Katalox is in place, the question is what is the best way? Right now I've simply adjusted the softener's DO (pushed it back from ~7 days to 14 to start). The "soft" water has been great, especially in with running the dishwasher, only real annoyance was the toilet bowl stains requiring frequent cleanings.

Prior to the softener install my hardness CaCO3 was 283 mg/l, iron was .43 mg/l and manganese was .13 mg/l

Thanks!

 

[Reach4]

that reappeared within days of a full cleaning of toilet tanks and re-gen of the resin with Rust-out

Do you mean Iron Out AKA Super Iron Out? Brush toilet bowl and tank. Flush. Put about a half cup in the tank and a cup sprinkling on the walls of the bowl too. Close the lids. Leave for 6 hours, but longer would be better. Maybe before a vacation.

Dissolve 1/2 cup of Iron Out intoto 2 gallons of water. Add that to the brine tank 2 or more hours before the next regen. (ref https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/regen-coloring.55048/page-3#post-403901 but with 1/2 cup IO). Since it will take longer for the IO to draw out, you could extend Bd temporarily, or do an immediate regeneration after the IO treatment to add more rinse.

It can take time to get the iron in the pipes cleared. Do you have galvanized pipes? That could be adding new iron.
Here is what I would use:

System info (not programmed)
salt lb/cuft = 6 ; A choice ( efficiency vs capacity)
BLFC = 0.5 ; Brine Refill rate GPM
cubic ft resin = 1.5 ; ft3 resin = (nominal grains)/32,000
Raw hardness = 17 ; including any compensation
People = 2 ; gallons affects reserve calc
Estimated gal/day = 120 ; 60 gal per person typical calc (used for RC)
Estimated days/regen = 8.3 ; Computed days ignoring reserve

Fleck 5600SXT Settings:
DF = Gal ; Units
VT = dF1b ; Downflw/Upflw, Single Backwash
CT = Fd ; Meter Delayed regen trigger
NT = 1 ; Number of tanks
C = 30.0 ; capacity in 1000 grains
H = 17 ; Hardness
RS = rc ; rc says use gallons vs percent
RC = 120 ; Reserve capacity gallons CHANGE IF APPROPRIATE
DO = 14 ; Day Override
RT = 2:00 ; Regen time (default 2 AM) (remember standard time coming)
BW = 5 ; Backwash (minutes)
Bd = 60 ; Brine draw minutes if #0 Injector - Red injector
RR = 5 ; Rapid Rinse minutes
BF = 6 ; Brine fill minutes
FM = usually t0.7 ; flow meter, make note of what is there

If #00 Injector - Violet Bd=90.
If #1 Injector - White consider changing injector, but 60 or even as low as 40 would be OK for Bd if sticking with white.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Bannerman]

The BLFC= 0.5 gpm and injector number/color are only assumptions and should be verified before reprogramming. A label stating those values is typically located near the brine fitting on the control valve.

 

[GraniteState]

Thanks for the replies. The specific rust out resin cleaning product I've been adding to the brine tank is "Pro Rust Out RO65N" the red label, very nasty stuff as it irritates my lungs. As for the fixture cleaning, the stuff comes right off with a CLR or hard-water type cleaning product. The house is newer so its all Pex. I had previously added a 5 micron pleated cartridge type filter in front of the softener and no surprise the filters don't work and when I change them out they are caked up with orange slime. I take that to mean the well water probably won't need an oxidizer/venturi type device, again my high hopes for the Katalox.

House is 2.5 bath, two adults and one toddler.

Bannerman - the sticker reads ".5 GPM (1.5 lb salt/min)" - Does this mean with a brine fill time of 12 min, each regen I'm using 18lb of salt?

Reach4 - here's the info you asked about:

salt lb/cuft = 6 ; A choice ( efficiency vs capacity) - I'd prefer the efficiency
BLFC = 0.5 ; Brine Refill rate GPM - .5GPM
cubic ft resin = 1.5 ; ft3 resin = (nominal grains)/32,000 - 48,000
Raw hardness = 17 ; including any compensation - 18
People = 2 ; gallons affects reserve calc - 2, I suppose
Estimated gal/day = 120 ; 60 gal per person typical calc (used for RC) - 60-70 is probably fine
Estimated days/regen = 8.3 ; Computed days ignoring reserve - Unsure

Also here are my exact settings on the softener right now:

DF Gal
VT DF 1b
CT FD
NT 1
C 48,000
H 18
RS SF
SF 20
DO 14
02:00
BW 10
RD 60
RR 10
BF 12
FM t0.7

Thanks!

 

[Reach4]

I had previously added a 5 micron pleated cartridge type filter in front of the softener and no surprise the filters don't work and when I change them out they are caked up with orange slime. I take that to mean the well water probably won't need an oxidizer/venturi type device, again my high hopes for the Katalox.

I would hope the filter cartridges last longer now with your KL filter preceding the cartridge. What is the model of your cartridge?

Now that you have your stuff installed, I would sanitize my well and plumbing system. There is some time now before winter hits. Otherwise you would might want to wait until spring, to get better weather.

 

[Bannerman]

Does this mean with a brine fill time of 12 min, each regen I'm using 18lb of salt?

Correct.
Unfortunately, 18 lbs is not enough to regenerate 48K grains capacity (your current 'C' setting). To regenerate that amount of usable capacity in a 1.5 cuft softener would require 27 lbs salt per regeneration cycle. Not only is that very inefficient at 1,777 grains per lb, that capacity is not really achievable in practice.

Some initial capacity will be lost due to resin bead breakage and wear over time so your unit would typically be considered to realistically have 45K + grains, in anticipation of those capacity losses occurring. That 45K can be regenerated with 22.5 lbs which is slightly more efficient at 2,000 grains/lb.

The settings which Reach4 recommended, are drastically more salt efficient - 9 lbs salt to regenerate 30K of usable capacity. This works out to be a maximum efficiency of 3,333 grains/lb.

Alternatively, 12 lbs salt would regenerate 36K capacity which then realizes a max efficiency of 3,000 grains/lb.

To achieve higher salt efficiency means reducing the salt dose and lowering the usable capacity programmed, but the regeneration frequency will increase as a result. With iron removed prior to the softener, it is generally desirable to choose an efficient salt dose suitable to satisfy your soft water requirements while also not requiring regeneration more often than 1X per week.

If you've been operating your softener at C=48 with only an 18 lb salt dose, you will now need to perform a 1X regeneration using the maximum 27 lb salt dose to restore the resin's total capacity. The efficient salt settings and usable capacity prescribed, are always based on the resin being first restored to total capacity.

 

[Bannerman]

In re-reading your initial post, I see you haven't actually been utilizing the entire 48K capacity prior to regeneration.

Your current consumption, assuming 70 gallons per adult per day is reasonably accurate: 70 gals X 2 ppl X 18 gpg =2,520 grains/day

As a 7 day over-ride had been programmed, you would have then consumed only 17, 640 grains capacity prior to regen. The 18 lbs of salt utilized, is adequate to restore in excess of 42K capacity. In changing the DO to 14 days, likely no more than 36K is consumed. Due to this, it appears the total capacity was not depleted so you should not need to first regenerate with 27 lbs of salt as was prior advised.

In using the same daily consumption estimate as above with the revised settings initially suggested, the regeneration frequency should then be:
30,000 / 2520 = 11 days while decreasing salt usage to 9 lbs.

If programmed to use 12 lbs to deliver 36K capacity, the regeneration frequency would then be estimated as 14 days.

 

[GraniteState]

Thanks guys, so to "dial in" my softener it sounds like I need to first ramp up my salt use, get the resin back to normal. That makes sense. I've been using the more expensive salt pellets for some time now (Morton's green bag for "rust removal") actually that's all I've had in the there for a few weeks. Prior to that I was alternating green bags with the Morton's System Saver II, yellow bag. I'd like to get to the point where maybe I can just use the cheaper blue bag salt, we'll see.... Just FYI, after the Katalox's second normal regen both my wife and I have noticed the water is significantly more "slippery" it feels like the soap is never rinsed away when taking a shower, I think that might be due to the Katalox media being so new, taking the load off the softener.

 

[GraniteState]

In re-reading your initial post, I see you haven't actually been utilizing the entire 48K capacity prior to regeneration.

Your current consumption, assuming 70 gallons per adult per day is reasonably accurate: 70 gals X 2 ppl X 18 gpg =2,520 grains/day

As a 7 day over-ride had been programmed, you would have then consumed only 17, 640 grains capacity prior to regen. The 18 lbs of salt utilized, is adequate to restore in excess of 42K capacity. In changing the DO to 14 days, likely no more than 36K is consumed. Due to this, it appears the total capacity was not depleted so you should not need to first regenerate with 27 lbs of salt as was prior advised.

In using the same daily consumption estimate as above with the revised settings initially suggested, the regeneration frequency should then be:
30,000 / 2520 = 11 days while decreasing salt usage to 9 lbs.

If programmed to use 12 lbs to deliver 36K capacity, the regeneration frequency would then be estimated as 14 days.

Sorry, I should have refreshed the page before posting my last reply - Should I try to better gauge our actual average water usage first? I know the softener was over-sized to begin with, so maybe I should better understand my use first. I'm assuming the gallons remaining is fairly accurate on the 5600's display so I could just check on it the same time every day over week and make a note of it to come up with a better average.

 

[Reach4]

Just FYI, after the Katalox's second normal regen both my wife and I have noticed the water is significantly more "slippery" it feels like the soap is never rinsed away when taking a shower, I think that might be due to the Katalox media being so new, taking the load off the softener.

Yes, but it is also because you are using as much soap as you used to use. You can use less with the softer water.

 

[GraniteState]

Well yes, that takes some getting used to... I only mention it because its considerably more noticeable now with the addition of the Katalox, compared to the softener alone. Is that due to the temporarily increased PH that comes with new Katalox?

 

[Reach4]

Well yes, that takes some getting used to... I only mention it because its considerably more noticeable now with the addition of the Katalox, compared to the softener alone. Is that due to the temporarily increased PH that comes with new Katalox?

I think your theory was right -- that the iron was putting a load on the softener. However your higher pH theory makes sense too. Consider some pH test paper such as Hydrion (O67) Urine & Saliva pH Paper 5.5-8.0. I found that it took a few seconds to get the color I expected rather than the right color being instantaneous.

Did you make the programming changes?

 

[Bannerman]

Should I try to better gauge our actual average water usage first?

Not necessary. The figures I included were comparison estimates to help you better understand how the softener works. What is important is to program the appropriate usable capacity as related to the salt dose which both impact efficiency.

Also, the hardness amount programmed needs to be correct. As you are performing your own softener programming and maintenance, you may wish to purchase a Hach 5B Test Kit to periodically test your water's hardness both before and after the softener.

Once the programming has been completed correctly, since the 5600SXT monitors the amount of soft water utilized, it will proceed to automatically regenerate using the settings as programmed whenever the usable capacity has been depleted.

As Reach4 mentioned, the quantity of detergent, shampoo, moisturizer, fabric softener etc, can all be reduced when the softener is working correctly. Compounds with high pH will often feel slippery (ie: chlorine bleach).

As soap reacts with water hardness resulting in soap scum, the slipperiness now felt when bathing is more likely the feel of your own skin with no soap residue sticking to you.

 

[GraniteState]

I think I'll keep an eye on the water for this first week or so and revisit the settings as suggested. I know every well is different but I know my neighbor already had to have his softener media replaced due to what I can only assume was iron fouling. The system had no iron filter/pre-filter and was only about two years old. That being said, I'm a bit concerned that my media may have already taken a similar hit so to speak given that I ran it for over a year with nothing more than a Watts 20" big-blue filter (5 micron). I will look into picking up the Hach 5B kit as well.

 

[Bannerman]

I'm not certain I understand your concern.

While your iron quantity would be problematic if not removed, it is not excessive for the softener especially as you where using salt with an iron cleaner and were performing additional resin cleaning. While it is always best to remove iron with a dedicated filter, there are plenty of people who continue to rely on their softeners to remove greater amounts of iron than you experience.

my neighbor already had to have his softener media replaced due to what I can only assume was iron fouling.

There are too many variables to know for certain why his resin required replacement. Perhaps a defective batch or depending on the type of softener (ie: big box store), the resin may have been of low quality. Perhaps his resin only needed cleaning with an iron removal agent similar as you were performing. Maybe he regularly adds chlorine or another oxidizer prior to the softener, which damaged the resin. Perhaps his settings are incorrect and only needed reprogramming in which case, he may again experience the same issues.

A BB pre-filter is not often needed nor recommended as it may itself create problems. A softener employs a backwash cycle so any sediment entering should be flushed to drain. A pre-filter may restrict the incoming flow thereby preventing the softener from properly backwashing and reclassifying the resin bed. If the water contains visible silt and sediment, then a pre-filter may then be justified but there are alternate filter types which are less prone to restricting flow.

As you indicate your filter became caked with orange 'slime' deposits, I expect the flow through the filter was being restricted and also suspect IRB (iron reducing bacteria) in which case, you may require chlorine injection prior to the KL filter.

Do you have water test results you can post?

I'll keep an eye on the water for this first week or so and revisit the settings as suggested.

It appears then you have not reprogrammed the controller.