3 companies came to do tests, please advise on which softener

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by dwassner, May 25, 2012.

  1. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,232
    Location:
    Maine
    If it's a metered demand unit it does
  2. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    No, that is for those not going with a larger softener to be able to get a regeneration on a weekly basis or to use Iron Out.

    If that is what it showed, that's what you need unless you want to regenerate more often. Sorry but you either buy the necessary salt for a softener or suffer the much higher expensive of living with your iron and hardness.

    Yes, add up the max flow rate of the fixtures you use at the same time or use a tub that has no flow restriction, whether you use it or not.

    You use the SFR of the softener, not the control valve but... Fleck says to not use a 5600 on a larger than a 2.0 cuft softener (a 12" diameter tank), I don't recall the max for a 7000 but it is way up there around a 9-10 cuft (maybe a 21" tank).

    Because you said at times a medical condition causes water use.
  3. dwassner

    dwassner New Member

    Messages:
    48
    Location:
    NEW YORK
    If this is true then it seems like the softener I am going to want is a 7000SXT with a 3.0 cu ft resin bed. 96k is the largest bed that I can find.
  4. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    He said he used water at night sometimes due to a medical condition.

    After some 25 years of talking to people about their softeners, I can tell you that you'd be surprised by how many people know when their softener regenerates.

    Oh I see new conditions now but, after 25 years experience with control valves, and comparing that to your is it two weeks experience with your first softener, - I can tell you that it is rare for Fleck or Clack valves to have wear problems regardless of how frequently they operate.

    The piston travels in seals made of industrial grade materials and only move slowly up to 1.5" and back during a regeneration of normally 90 minutes or less. Backwashed or regenerated filters that operate daily use the same parts and materials although the piston has a slightly different side view shape and there can be fewer seals than in a softener and the wearable pars last 10-20 years. And then it is usually something in the water that causes a build up on the edge of the seals or on the piston between the seals, in the spacer area, that causes the "wear". When there is iron in the water, you use Iron Out or some other type resin cleaner and it removes any build up the iron causes.
  5. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    I'd suggest the Fleck 2510 but... any dealer can sell you any size softener you need but they may not have it on their web site so you'd have to call them and ask them for one. Or you drop back to an "80K" and program for whatever salt efficiency and K of capacity you want to use.

    And as I think I've said to you, I'd go a 2.0 cuft as long as you don't need a higher than 13 gpm for your peak demand and regenerate it more frequently. If you need more than 13 gpm, go to a 2.5 cuft.
  6. dwassner

    dwassner New Member

    Messages:
    48
    Location:
    NEW YORK
    I see that the 2510 does not do upflow brining. Is this not a critical feature? Why do you prefer the 2510 over the 7000?
    Also, this may be obvious, but, at 2.0 cu ft and a more frequent regeneration, I would not lose salt efficiency? I would be able to run a 2.0 cu ft at half the amount I would need to run it if i were doing an 8 day regeneration, if i did a 4 day regeneration?

    thanks
  7. F6Hawk

    F6Hawk New Member

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    166
    Location:
    Alaska
    4 days with your estimated usage would put you at 43,200 grains. A 2.0 will handle up to 48K using 8 lbs per cu ft, or 16 lbs per regen. That means you can go 4 days plus a little.
  8. F6Hawk

    F6Hawk New Member

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    166
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    Alaska
  9. dwassner

    dwassner New Member

    Messages:
    48
    Location:
    NEW YORK
    thanks I saw them online and they appear to have great prices. But as far as my last question, does the 2510 only do downflow regeneration and if so is it a not so critical feature?

    at a frequency of 4 days regeneration instead of 8 with a softener that is 2.0 cu ft or 2.5, would I be using twice as much water since I regen twice as often?

    Thanks again guys this has been a really big help. If not for this site and the responses I would have a Kinetico K2060 hooked up in my basement and have spent alot more money. The time spent on here was well worth it.
  10. chevy427

    chevy427 Banned

    Messages:
    174
    Location:
    USA
    Yes, the 2510 does downflow brining only and No it is not a critical feature. It does do hard water water with 2.0ppm backwashing though. I would have recommended a 1.5cuft system and not wait till the softener runs out of capacity before regenerating. Are you planning on a drinking water system--RO?
  11. dwassner

    dwassner New Member

    Messages:
    48
    Location:
    NEW YORK
    with a 24 hr reserve wouldnt that be considered not waiting until the softener runs out of capacity? We were goign to take it one step at a time and first see how the water tastes.
  12. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

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    3,232
    Location:
    Maine
    Upflow brining is more effective and efficient but IMO, not worth the hassle or the added expense. IOW you don't need it. I agree with WaterSolutions about upsizing for better efficiency and reliability.
  13. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Yes, upflow is not an option on a 2510 and I'm not sure but I don't think it's an option on the 7000 either and if it is it has to be special ordered because internal parts are different than the standard down flow. You don't want upflow/counter current regeneration anyway, for residential softening it is mostly sales hype and usually not done right.

    Yep, just about twice the water use, proving there is no "free lunch".

    You are a very wise man.
  14. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Yes it would, along with the additional capacity above your programmed K of capacity. Remember that the original new capacity was 30K per cuft of of new resin but, if you use any of that, you are not regenerating that resin with your salt dose for whatever K of capacity you are programmed for. I.E. a "32K" = useable 30K and you program for 20K (@6lbs/ft) including your say 3K of 24 hr reserve leaves that 30-20k= 10K still in the bed; unless you start using it by overrunning your SFR of 9 gpm. Then, with only 6 lbs of salt, you do not regenerate that part of the 10K or all of the 20K you need and you get hard water through the softener.

    The only cure for that is to do 2 manual regenerations at the max lbs per cuft of 15 lbs, with no water use during or between the 2 regenerations.

    Otherwise you'll have to forgive water solutions (Andy Christensen) because he's trying to pretend he is not a Kinetico salesman, that really doesn't know other equipment very well.

    For all I know as far as troubleshooting goes, he may not know Kinetico equipment very well either. But I can tell you that he is a true "Professional" salesman. He has the Kinetico company line hype down pat, and can in no time wrestle big bucks outta any uninformed consumer's bank account.
  15. dwassner

    dwassner New Member

    Messages:
    48
    Location:
    NEW YORK
    I will do a gpm test tonight to see if I need more that 2.0 cu ft can do. If I do use a 2.0 cu ft, a 5600 is almost $150 less than a 2510, and the 7000 is about $100 less than the 2510. I don't want to be redundant here, but...
  16. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,232
    Location:
    Maine
    What reason do you have for going with a 2510? Not that it is a bad valve, quite the opposite but as you have found out the 5600 is less money and every bit as good a choice and my choice would be the 7000SXT and go with a 2.0 cu/ft unit.

    Just for clarification: Is there a forum rule here that prohibits Kinetico salesmen or servicemen from posting here? How about Culligan and Rain-soft? I know there are some here that for whatever reason don't particularly like those products but the truth is that they are quality pieces of equipment and while they are more expensive and proprietary I can't see where driving folks that could potentially help other folks away from this site is a good business decision.
  17. dwassner

    dwassner New Member

    Messages:
    48
    Location:
    NEW YORK
    If I was to use a birm filter in the future would I then reduce amount of grains i would need to treat accordingly or leave it? How is the Ironout used/applied?
  18. F6Hawk

    F6Hawk New Member

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    166
    Location:
    Alaska
  19. dwassner

    dwassner New Member

    Messages:
    48
    Location:
    NEW YORK
    Why are there places online selling them with up to 3.0 cu ft resin beds? Is this a disaster waiting to happen?
  20. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,864
    Location:
    Ontario California
    5600 valves have a maximum backwash rating, that being said, the manufacturers recommendations are just that. From a technical standpoint, and as a OEM and distributor, we do not spec a 5600 with any more than a 12" tank for water softening resin. None of the major companies do either. I sell a lot of 14" tanks, resin, and valves unassembled. I also know from field experience that a 5600 with a 14x65 with 4 cu. ft of resin works fine. It is technically completely out of specification. Does this really matter? Probably not. Should it be done? Probably not.
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