Stemmed vs Stemless Check Valve

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ACWxRADR

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Valveman,

OK. Now this makes a lot more sense to me. I originally had the impression that you meant that the pump should run 24/7. I know that this just is not feasible for most residential water systems. But, preventing the pump from cycling on and off during a shower, filling a tub, washing clothes or watering the lawn or a garden makes a great deal of logical sense. As long as you can maintain sufficient pressure, the pump should just continue to run (not stop and restart). Appropriately sizing the pressure tank and setting the precharge correctly as well as setting the pressure switch correctly, and selecting and programming a CSV to the specific water use and needs would all combine to make this possible and reduce the cycling of the pump and motor.

You know, a PLC (Programmable Logic Controller) could be programmed to provide a great deal of support and control of all sorts of parameters involved here. With the appropriate sensors and I/O modules I could design a really sweet system to control a pump and pressure system. Unfortunately, this would be an expensive option. Even if I were to provide the programming and setup labor for free, the materials would be highly prohibitive for most consumers. But, it would be a really sweet system!

RADAR
 

Valveman

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Appropriately sizing the pressure tank and setting the precharge correctly as well as setting the pressure switch correctly, and selecting and programming a CSV to the specific water use and needs would all combine to make this possible and reduce the cycling of the pump and motor.
RADAR

With a CSV the tank is only in use when you are not using any water. As long as you are using more than 1 GPM, the CSV makes the water go right past the tank, straight to the faucet(s). The tank could be large, small, waterlogged, or even non-existent and the CSV would just keep delivering 50 PSI steady to the faucet(s). Only when you have turned off all the faucets will the CSV let the pressure tank fill to 60 PSI so the pressure switch can shut off the pump. The size of the tank, amount of draw down, and even air charge are not important at all as long as you are using more than 1 GPM.

Programming the CSV is as easy as turning a 9/16 bolt until it holds the 50 PSI steady. There are no electronics to a CSV.
 

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You know, a PLC (Programmable Logic Controller) could be programmed to provide a great deal of support and control of all sorts of parameters involved here. With the appropriate sensors and I/O modules I could design a really sweet system to control a pump and pressure system. Unfortunately, this would be an expensive option. Even if I were to provide the programming and setup labor for free, the materials would be highly prohibitive for most consumers. But, it would be a really sweet system!

RADAR

A PLC can only do on and off, it has no control over the pressure. I have tried PLCs, VFD's, programmable pressure switches, and many other things over the years. What I have learned is that the simpler the controls and fewer electronics you have in a pump control system, the more likely water is to come out of the faucet when you open it.
 

Ballvalve

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The tank could be large, small, waterlogged, or even non-existent and the CSV would just keep delivering 50 PSI steady to the faucet(s).

You mentioned earlier that a CSV would not help in a waterlogged system and certainly in a no tank situation. I had a 2 house system waterlogged and the pump was running on and off in perhaps 10 second cycles. Likely just small leaks in the old and large piping underground. So I understand that the CSV would have allowed that to continue - only if the use was larger and consistent would it keep the pump on. So even with a CSV one still can smoke a pump short cycling unless he has a pumptek or your cycle sensor in line.

The day will come when a reliable variable speed single or generated 3 phase pump hits the market. Grunfos and Goulds seem to be pretty close right now. I do have friends with the Grunfos that have 10 years and counting on them. I still don't trust them at the crazy cost.

If you don't get on the variable speed bandwagon, just take care of your pressure tanks like the tires on your car, and you likely won't see your pump for 30 years. Or get your 2500 gallon tank 35+ PSI up the hill, and you might not see your pump for 40 years.

I still like the 30 - 60 or 40-80 PSI pressure setting. I have to laugh when "plumbers" are in shock at putting pipes under such stress. Most of them walk on their knuckles, it seems.
 

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The tank could be large, small, waterlogged, or even non-existent and the CSV would just keep delivering 50 PSI steady to the faucet(s).

You mentioned earlier that a CSV would not help in a waterlogged system and certainly in a no tank situation. I had a 2 house system waterlogged and the pump was running on and off in perhaps 10 second cycles. Likely just small leaks in the old and large piping underground. So I understand that the CSV would have allowed that to continue - only if the use was larger and consistent would it keep the pump on. So even with a CSV one still can smoke a pump short cycling unless he has a pumptek or your cycle sensor in line.

I don't think I said that. If I did what I meant was a CSV WILL help in a waterlogged tank situation as long as you are using more than 1 GPM. So if you don't have small leaks, the pump will not come on until you are using water. Then the CSV will keep the pump running steady as long as the sink or shower is running more than 1 GPM. Without a CSV a waterlogged tank would cause the pump to machine gun on and off every 10 seconds or so while you are using water. The waterlogged tank will cause the pump to go off immediately as soon as you close the faucet and come on immediately when you open a faucet, but as long as you don't have small leaks, the pump will not come on unless you are using water.

Another way a CSV helps with waterlogged tanks is that it reduces the cycling and makes bladder in tanks last longer so the tank doesn't get waterlogged to start with.

The day will come when a reliable variable speed single or generated 3 phase pump hits the market. Grunfos and Goulds seem to be pretty close right now. I do have friends with the Grunfos that have 10 years and counting on them. I still don't trust them at the crazy cost.

That's Funny! That is the same think I was saying 30 years ago when I was using variable speed drives. I have also heard that from many others over the years, but it has yet to happen and probably never will. The technical nature of a VFD ensures that a reliable version will probably never exist. A VFD is no different than your computer or smart phone, which has bugs, fails, and needs to be replaced often. Manufacturers are using VFD's to try and make the same thing happen with pumps. They want you to throw the old one away and purchase a new one every 5 years or so to maintain the "cash flow" from your pocket to theirs. The problem is that they keep lying about a VFD saving energy, which makes people think the problems and short life of a VFD are OK. In reality a VFD waste energy and waste even more when it has to be replaced. The best way to save energy is to have the right size pump for the job, and that pump NOT be controlled by a VFD. Also having a pump that last 30 years instead of 5 saves energy, as it takes a lot of energy to mine, manufacture, transport, install, and recycle all those extra short lived VFDs and pumps.

If you don't get on the variable speed bandwagon, just take care of your pressure tanks like the tires on your car, and you likely won't see your pump for 30 years. Or get your 2500 gallon tank 35+ PSI up the hill, and you might not see your pump for 40 years.

Anyway except using a VFD to lengthen the run times of a pump will increase the life of the pump. Using really large pressure tanks with the proper air charge will lengthen pump runs times, but not as much as a CSV. And while big storage tanks will greatly reduce the number of pump cycles, it comes with other problems. I wouldn't use a storage tank unless I had a weak producing well, because the water in the storage tank gets warm, stale, and must be chlorinated to keep stuff from growing in the tank.

I still like the 30 - 60 or 40-80 PSI pressure setting. I have to laugh when "plumbers" are in shock at putting pipes under such stress. Most of them walk on their knuckles, it seems.

Again anyway to extend pump run times will make the pump last longer. The idea of a 40/80 pressure switch is good except for overstretching the bladder in a tank and having big fluctuations in the house pressure. It is very similar to how a CSV works, except that the 40 to 80 pressure is only on the pump side of the CSV while the house enjoys a steady 40 PSI from the discharge of the CSV.
 
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