Pressure good gauge but drops

[Wellquestion]

Submersible well pump (skinny type about 2'0" long on long piece of pipe...
A little hard to describe this so bear with me.
Pressure switch stuck (welded) closed and if I'm remembering correctly pump cut out on overload of some sort. Manually closed contacts and pump started so replaced contractor (pressure switch) and gauge that had sprung.
When I replaced, decided to change switch to a 40-60 psi switch (rather than the 30-50 original) since last time I replaced pump, got a higher capacity pump.
Set bladder at the time
Fired everything up and appeared to be working properly.
But, when I get a shower, pressure starts out good but drops off to no water pressure (water quits coming out of shower head.) and then builds back up quickly to full pressure.
If I watch the gauge as the pump goes down to cut on and off pressure, everything appears to be working properly (gauge cuts on at 40 and cuts off at 60. Only caveat to this is once pump cuts off, water pressure continues to rise somewhat beyond the cutoff point (this is much more drastic when first cut pump on after draining everything.... air in lines I suppose.
So after experiencing these symptoms thought may I messed up by having pump operate at higher pressure.... leaks under house for instance) so backpedaled and reset this switch to 30-50Psi and reset the tank at 28 psi. Nothing changed.
Thought it might be my water filter so took it out completely.
Crawled under house to take a look for leaks because if I turn pump off for extended period it will fall to zero on the gauge. Looked and there doesn't appear to be any drastic leaks, but I could have missed something because insulation is falling down all over the place in the crawlspace.
Thought I'd ask here before I ripped out all the insulation to see what these symptoms describe.
Well pump was replaced 3 or 4 years ago.
Could this be symptomatic of a bad foot/check valve?
Dumb question but if water pressure was zero on either side of the gauge (meaning pump side or house side) the gauge would read zero correct? Meaning there is no way for the water pressure at the pump and at the house to read drastically different is there?
What do you suspect?

 

[Reach4]

Crawled under house to take a look for leaks because if I turn pump off for extended period it will fall to zero on the gauge. Looked and there doesn't appear to be any drastic leaks, but I could have missed something because insulation is falling down all over the place in the crawlspace.

Run the pump to where it cuts off, and then turn off the valve that passes water from the pressure tank to the house and yard. Monitor the pressure. How much pressure do you have on the gauge before and after the second hour?

How big is the pressure tank? Is the brand and model readily available?

When you take a shower, how long does the pressure stay low at a time?

 

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[Wellquestion]

Thanks for the response.
Will do on the monitoring pressure later this evening.
Pressure tank should not be an issue as prior to these issues we were using the same tank with no issues.
Showering the pressure seems normal for extended period of time, then falls off rather abruptly then just almost completely quits then cranks back up quickly to full pressure again then falls off like normal..... then quickly to low/no pressure at the showered again.

Run the pump to where it cuts off, and then turn off the valve that passes water from the pressure tank to the house and yard. Monitor the pressure. How much pressure do you have on the gauge before and after the second hour?

How big is the pressure tank? Is the brand and model readily available?

When you take a shower, how long does the pressure stay low at a time?

 

[Reach4]

Pressure tank should not be an issue as prior to these issues we were using the same tank with no issues.

The reason for asking about the tank was mainly to put any drop due to leaks into perspective. The idea of turning off the water as a test is to see if any leaks are before the tank vs after. You could have some of each potentially.

Only caveat to this is once pump cuts off, water pressure continues to rise somewhat beyond the cutoff point

I presume it comes up more than the little overshoo blip I show in the graph on this thread. That first pressure was from just before the pressure switch clicked off.

Showering the pressure seems normal for extended period of time, then falls off rather abruptly then just almost completely quits

That sounds like you need drop the precharge pressure down a bit. You know that the precharge air pressure is set when the water pressure has been dropped to zero. However there may be a bit of difference in the calibration between the air and water pressure gauges, so I would drop the air precharge 1 PSI or 2 PSI if needed.

then falls off like normal..... then quickly to low/no pressure at the showered again.

There are many showerheads that are supposed to keep the flow fairly constant as long as the pressure is up to some minimum.

 

[Wellquestion]

Challenger series pressure tank.... blue and about waist high and 2'-0" diameter +/-.
So, when I turn off the valve that runs to the house, the pressure gauge is effectively reading the pressure and pressure drop from that valve and backwards to the well? Similarly, if I close the valve that leads to the pump, then the gauge is effectively reading the pressure and the pressure drop for all the house piping? And therefor, when both valves are open the pressure is being read for all the different piping circuits combined.... correct?
So, if with the valve closed for the house piping, if pressure drops then that will tell me I have a leak somewhere between the valve and the pump.... which could potentially be the foot valve, connections or a busted pipe etc (maybe because I jacked up pressure with my new valve!)

The reason for asking about the tank was mainly to put any drop due to leaks into perspective. The idea of turning off the water as a test is to see if any leaks are before the tank vs after. You could have some of each potentially.
I presume it comes up more than the little overshoo blip I show in the graph on this thread. That first pressure was from just before the pressure switch clicked off.

I'm not seeing the graph you're talking about.... is there a link I'm missing? Note that this time when the pump cut off with the switch this time, the pressure climbed from 50 psi at cutoff to 75psi..... so, this would seem abnormal to me.

That sounds like you need drop the precharge pressure down a bit. You know that the precharge air pressure is set when the water pressure has been dropped to zero. However there may be a bit of difference in the calibration between the air and water pressure gauges, so I would drop the air precharge 1 PSI or 2 PSI if needed.

I think I understand what you are saying here about calibration of gauges being off. How about this.... I'm noticing that when the pump is getting say, 5 or so psi from cut ON pressure, I hear the tank gurgle.... sounds like something is "off". Could this have something to do with the pressure being set incorrectly in the tank? I don't have a whole lot of faith in my air pressure gauge. Would this mean too much or too little pressure?
As of right now, the pump has been cut off and the house piping isolated for about 1 hour and it appears that the pressure gauge is holding steady. Silly me didn't get an absolute exact reading on the gauge but it was somewhere between 75 and 72 psi and the gauge reads 72 psi now so it appears to be holding well.
Will also need to check under the house for leaks but wondering the following before I call it a night.
I know you're supposed to check tank pressure with the tank drained, but is there any relationship between the pressure reading of the bladder when it is pressurized by the pump? Meaning, my water pressure gauge reads 72 and my air in the tank when it's pressurized reads (with a possible faulty gauge albeit).... just wondering if this seems off some how.
Also curious if I suspected my gauge was off, would a test be to say, bleed off 10 psi and see if this fixes the dead lag spot of no pressure just as a test that would tell me that it was tank pressure that was causing my problems? Would this cause my pump to short cycle temporarily but keep up the pressure so there was no zero pressure at shower head just so I could sort of narrow things down. Or, do I somehow have the relationship of the bladder pressure to water pressure relationship confused?


There are many showerheads that are supposed to keep the flow fairly constant as long as the pressure is up to some minimum.

It's doubtful I have one of these models coupled with the fact that the zero pressure thing also happens at other faucets.... just not as often presumedly because the volume of flow is not as much at the kitchen....

Thanks again!

 

[Reach4]

Similarly, if I close the valve that leads to the pump, then the gauge is effectively reading the pressure and the pressure drop for all the house piping?

There is normally no shutoff valve between the pressure tank and the pump. But having one valve is good enough to separate the system for this purpose.

 

[Wellquestion]

Not sure if you caught my "red" text contained inside of your quote.... need to click show more and it's there. Just making sure you saw it (small text).

Challenger series pressure tank.... blue and about waist high and 2'-0" diameter +/-.
So, when I turn off the valve that runs to the house, the pressure gauge is effectively reading the pressure and pressure drop from that valve and backwards to the well? Similarly, if I close the valve that leads to the pump, then the gauge is effectively reading the pressure and the pressure drop for all the house piping? And therefor, when both valves are open the pressure is being read for all the different piping circuits combined.... correct?
So, if with the valve closed for the house piping, if pressure drops then that will tell me I have a leak somewhere between the valve and the pump.... which could potentially be the foot valve, connections or a busted pipe etc (maybe because I jacked up pressure with my new valve!)


It's doubtful I have one of these models coupled with the fact that the zero pressure thing also happens at other faucets.... just not as often presumedly because the volume of flow is not as much at the kitchen....

Thanks again!

 

[Wellquestion]

Below text is what I'm referring to.... not the text above.

I'm not seeing the graph you're talking about.... is there a link I'm missing? Note that this time when the pump cut off with the switch this time, the pressure climbed from 50 psi at cutoff to 75psi..... so, this would seem abnormal to me.

That sounds like you need drop the precharge pressure down a bit. You know that the precharge air pressure is set when the water pressure has been dropped to zero. However there may be a bit of difference in the calibration between the air and water pressure gauges, so I would drop the air precharge 1 PSI or 2 PSI if needed.

I think I understand what you are saying here about calibration of gauges being off. How about this.... I'm noticing that when the pump is getting say, 5 or so psi from cut ON pressure, I hear the tank gurgle.... sounds like something is "off". Could this have something to do with the pressure being set incorrectly in the tank? I don't have a whole lot of faith in my air pressure gauge. Would this mean too much or too little pressure?
As of right now, the pump has been cut off and the house piping isolated for about 1 hour and it appears that the pressure gauge is holding steady. Silly me didn't get an absolute exact reading on the gauge but it was somewhere between 75 and 72 psi and the gauge reads 72 psi now so it appears to be holding well.
Will also need to check under the house for leaks but wondering the following before I call it a night.
I know you're supposed to check tank pressure with the tank drained, but is there any relationship between the pressure reading of the bladder when it is pressurized by the pump? Meaning, my water pressure gauge reads 72 and my air in the tank when it's pressurized reads (with a possible faulty gauge albeit).... just wondering if this seems off some how.
Also curious if I suspected my gauge was off, would a test be to say, bleed off 10 psi and see if this fixes the dead lag spot of no pressure just as a test that would tell me that it was tank pressure that was causing my problems? Would this cause my pump to short cycle temporarily but keep up the pressure so there was no zero pressure at shower head just so I could sort of narrow things down. Or, do I somehow have the relationship of the bladder pressure to water pressure relationship confused?

 

[Reach4]

I'm not seeing the graph you're talking about.... is there a link I'm missing? Note that this time when the pump cut off with the switch this time, the pressure climbed from 50 psi at cutoff to 75psi..... so, this would seem abnormal to me.

I was thinking I had put this link in: https://terrylove.com/forums/index....lls-after-pump-turns-off-but-levels-out.62065 While I saw a little overshoot, it was nothing like 50 to 90.

I think I understand what you are saying here about calibration of gauges being off. How about this.... I'm noticing that when the pump is getting say, 5 or so psi from cut ON pressure, I hear the tank gurgle.... sounds like something is "off". Could this have something to do with the pressure being set incorrectly in the tank? I don't have a whole lot of faith in my air pressure gauge. Would this mean too much or too little pressure?

The gurgling is something I have not heard in my system. I don't know what to make of it. It sounds like maybe it could be air in the water and not a function of how much precharge air is in the pressure tank.

Your gauge is new, but could there be some constriction in the nipple that hooks to it? Could it be that your pressure switch is really set for 40 75 and it takes a while for the pressure to make it through a constriction to the gauge?

As of right now, the pump has been cut off and the house piping isolated for about 1 hour and it appears that the pressure gauge is holding steady. Silly me didn't get an absolute exact reading on the gauge but it was somewhere between 75 and 72 psi and the gauge reads 72 psi now so it appears to be holding well.

That means that any leak is on the house side of things. There are a limited number of valves available, but you might shut off the one to the hot water tank for testing. Open the house valve. What does the pressure do then? If it falls steadily until the pump goes on, there is a leak somewhere in the cold piping.

I know you're supposed to check tank pressure with the tank drained, but is there any relationship between the pressure reading of the bladder when it is pressurized by the pump? Meaning, my water pressure gauge reads 72 and my air in the tank when it's pressurized reads (with a possible faulty gauge albeit).... just wondering if this seems off some how.

If the tank diaphragm were perfectly limp, the air pressure would be almost 1/2 PSI lower than the pressure at the gauge if the diaphragm in the tank was a foot higher than the height of the water pressure gauge. If the diaphragm is stretched, that would make the air pressure some amount less again. But for practical purposes, you usually think of the two pressures to be the same when there is water in the tank.

Also curious if I suspected my gauge was off, would a test be to say, bleed off 10 psi and see if this fixes the dead lag spot of no pressure just as a test that would tell me that it was tank pressure that was causing my problems? Would this cause my pump to short cycle temporarily but keep up the pressure so there was no zero pressure at shower head just so I could sort of narrow things down. Or, do I somehow have the relationship of the bladder pressure to water pressure relationship confused?

My concern about bleeding too much air would be that it would stretch the diaphragm more and might not be good for the tank. But it is the pressure tank's job to supply water between the time that the pressure switch contacts close and the pump delivers water than you are using it. If the precharge is too high, the tank runs out of water before the pump delivers the new water.

I suggest you get an additional pressure gauge-- one with garden hose threads. Put that on your laundry tub or water heater drain or whatever else you have handy. Compare the pressures.

I am a little concerned that you might have set the pressure switch to too much differential. They usually come with a preset 20 PSI differential but turning the smaller nut on the left clockwise increases the differential IIRC. Then the gauge lags the rising pressure due to an obstruction but you are taking your pressure reading at the click. But why would an obstruction not work on the way down also? I don't know. When you pulled your old gauge, was there gunk visible?

 

[Wondering]

I would think the tank is bad.

 

[Valveman]

Also another way to check a pressure gauge is to see if it goes back to zero when you let all the water out of the system.