Got water test results back...recommended treatment?

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stockman20

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Hello all,
After having been visited by both RainSoft and Kenetico and having both offer a different $5000 solution, I've taken it upon myself to have a lab test my water and devise a solution myself. However, I will need help from the experts on this forum!
Just to review, we currently have a GE GXSF30H (30,000 grains) softener with a GE whole house filter installed before it. The softener is functioning properly and produces 1gpg water. Our symptom: Orange stains on dishwasher, washing machine, toilets and tub. These stains are easily removed using Super Iron Out - but I don't want them to begin with. After reading through posts on this forum my original suspicion was an undersized softener, but now I'm wondering if we need some sort of additional filtration (like an iron filter). The house has two bathrooms with two people living in it.

Note that I tested the raw well water (bypassed the softener and whole house filter).

Here are the results:

Calcium: 167ppm
Iron: 3.37ppm
Iron-Dissolved: 0
Iron Bacteria: 9000 cfu/mL
Magnesium: 75ppm
Manganese: 0.037ppm
Potassium: 5.4ppm
Silica: 18ppm
Sodium: 34ppm
Zinc: 0.012ppm
Alkalinity (Total as CaCO3): 430ppm
Hardness: 720ppm (42gpg)
pH: 7.6
Total Dissolved Solids: 920ppm
Turbidity: 14 NTU
Chloride: 120ppm
Sulfate: 240ppm

A note on iron bacteria: I paid extra money to have this test done at the advice of folks on this forum. Everything I've read about iron bacteria says that it will show up in your toilet tank as slime on the bottom with an odor to go with it. We have none of these symptoms in our toilet tanks, however we do have the orange staining described above. Therefore, it's interesting to me that the lab found iron bacteria in our water. I welcome comments on this as well.

Thank you all, and Happy New Year!
 

Gary Slusser

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What did the other guys suggest for $5k? Did they mention IRB? Did they find any ferrous/soluble/dissolved iron? Is your RAW water clear?

Unless the toilet tank is cleaned periodically, or has some bowl cleaner in the tank, IRB usually causes a clear to black slippery, slimy, snotty film at and below the water line in the toilet water tank. Flush the toilet and as the water in the tank goes down, wipe the palm of a hand from the water line down to see if there is a slippery film or if the wall is gritty. IRB does not always cause an odor and if it does it might be in only the hot water.
 

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stockman20

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What did the other guys suggest for $5k? Did they mention IRB? Did they find any ferrous/soluble/dissolved iron? Is your RAW water clear?

Unless the toilet tank is cleaned periodically, or has some bowl cleaner in the tank, IRB usually causes a clear to black slippery, slimy, snotty film at and below the water line in the toilet water tank. Flush the toilet and as the water in the tank goes down, wipe the palm of a hand from the water line down to see if there is a slippery film or if the wall is gritty. IRB does not always cause an odor and if it does it might be in only the hot water.

Hi Gary,
RainSoft/Home Depot wanted to install their EC4 'conditioner' along with a QRS carbon filter. Kinetico wanted to install a twin tank water softener. They both said that their product guaranteed all iron would be removed.

When I asked about IRB both RainSoft and Kinetico dodged the question and said they had never heard of IRB being in well water around my area. I honestly don't think they even knew what I was talking about. RainSoft was not able to test for iron. The Kinetico guy tested the raw well water for iron (don't know what type) and found 2ppm.

Raw water comes out clear but turns a greenish-brown after sitting for an hour or more. After settling there is a very fine rust sediment that settles on the bottom. The top of the water also seems to be a bit oily - if that makes sense.
Water from my GE softener comes out clear and stays clear with no sediment.

We have two toilets in the house. The one downstairs has absolutely no signs of IRB. The toilet upstairs has a couple of thin, clear wisps of slim at the bottom of the tank. I just performed your 'hand' test on it and the tank under the water line, besides being wet, feels identical to the tank above the water line.

I also performed the test on page two of this document: http://des.nh.gov/organization/commissioner/pip/factsheets/dwgb/documents/dwgb-3-21.pdf
I did not find any "fluffy three dimensional" sediment, only the "powdered" stuff. So from this I would conclude no IRB, but, of course, the lab says different.

Thanks, Gary
 

Gary Slusser

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Then I agree about probably no IRB as long as the toilet tanks have not been cleaned recently (for months) or if it has not just started in the well, and I suggest sizing for the 3.5 ppm of iron (*4=13 gpg) and the 42 gpg of hardness (13+42= 55 gpg compensated hardness) for your family size (#people *60 gals/day * 55). You can find the info about how to do that by clicking the link in my signature.

If you have IRB and it causes a problem like fouling softener resin, you must kill it. You can shock the well, or chlorinate before the softener, or disinfect the softener to do that. Shocking a well can cause problems with water quality although rare, chlorinating all your water is expensive equipment and the softener may have been smaller with no iron, no iron because the chlorination and a backwashed filter would remove it and kill all forms of bacteria.
 

stockman20

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Then I agree about probably no IRB as long as the toilet tanks have not been cleaned recently (for months) or if it has not just started in the well, and I suggest sizing for the 3.5 ppm of iron (*4=13 gpg) and the 42 gpg of hardness (13+42= 55 gpg compensated hardness) for your family size (#people *60 gals/day * 55). You can find the info about how to do that by clicking the link in my signature.

If you have IRB and it causes a problem like fouling softener resin, you must kill it. You can shock the well, or chlorinate before the softener, or disinfect the softener to do that. Shocking a well can cause problems with water quality although rare, chlorinating all your water is expensive equipment and the softener may have been smaller with no iron, no iron because the chlorination and a backwashed filter would remove it and kill all forms of bacteria.

Thanks, Gary.

What do you mean by IRB "fouling softener resin"? Do you mean IRB ruining it, or just coating it so that it causes a smell? I have had to run a small amount of bleach through the brine tank a couple of times (according to GE's instructions) to "sanitize" the softener because of an odor in the water (we've owned the house 7 months). However, we also have been using a carbon filter for the whole-house filter which I understand can be a breeding ground for bacteria - so I will be switching to a cheaper pleated one.

I don't mean to open another can of worms here, but I just had a local guy out to the house yesterday and he recommended a twin tank 32,000 (each) softener with a Fleck 9100sxt valve to help solve our iron problem. He thought if we went with a bigger capacity it wouldn't regenerate enough. He looked in our toilet tanks and also did not think we had IRB. I'm leaning towards this solution because although the water seems to always test soft when I test it (hot and cold) if you spill water on a clear surface (for example a refrigerator shelf) and the water evaporates, it leaves behind a white, chalky residue which I believe is calcium. This leads me to believe that hard water (and probably iron too) is bleeding through.

Anyway here's my question: This twin tank with the Fleck 9100sxt is a "downflow" system. I've always read that an "upflow" is better ESPECIALLY if you have iron problems. Any comments there? Sorry, I know that is probably a whole other subject.

Thanks again,
 

Gary Slusser

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Fouling would be reducing the softening ability of the resin by 'coating' the sites on the beads or the beads themselves. The odor problems and curing it with chlorine says IRB to me. So threaten the wife (etc.) with mortal harm if she won't admit to cleaning the toilet tanks....

Anyone selling softeners and saying this.... "He thought if we went with a bigger capacity it wouldn't regenerate enough." shows how little they know about softeners.

And in residential applications, a twin tank is no better with iron than any other type of softener using the same type of resin as the twin. And no residential applications needs a twin tank type softener unless there is shift work causing water use during the middle of the night when a regular softener has to regenerate. You do know you ony get water through one (1.0 cuft) tank at a time right? You have that now and as long as you get 0 gpg, it is working as it should. And it isn't the softener that is causing the residue unless it has avery high sat dose and is not rinsing properly. It probably is the other things in your water like TDS, sulfate etc. so how does "upflow" (counter current) brining solve your problems?
 

stockman20

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Fouling would be reducing the softening ability of the resin by 'coating' the sites on the beads or the beads themselves. The odor problems and curing it with chlorine says IRB to me. So threaten the wife (etc.) with mortal harm if she won't admit to cleaning the toilet tanks....

Anyone selling softeners and saying this.... "He thought if we went with a bigger capacity it wouldn't regenerate enough." shows how little they know about softeners.

And in residential applications, a twin tank is no better with iron than any other type of softener using the same type of resin as the twin. And no residential applications needs a twin tank type softener unless there is shift work causing water use during the middle of the night when a regular softener has to regenerate. You do know you ony get water through one (1.0 cuft) tank at a time right? You have that now and as long as you get 0 gpg, it is working as it should. And it isn't the softener that is causing the residue unless it has avery high sat dose and is not rinsing properly. It probably is the other things in your water like TDS, sulfate etc. so how does "upflow" (counter current) brining solve your problems?

So what do you recommend I do assuming that I DO have IRB? I finally have my water tested and I'm more lost than before!

Thanks,
 
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Gary Slusser

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As I said: If you have IRB and it causes a problem like fouling softener resin, you must kill it. You can shock the well, or chlorinate before the softener, or disinfect the softener to do that. Shocking a well can cause problems with water quality although rare, chlorinating all your water is expensive equipment and the softener may have been smaller with no iron, no iron because the chlorination and a backwashed filter would remove it and kill all forms of bacteria.

Your "a bit oily" may mean there is some manganese reducing bacteria or it could be the IRB.

I suggest running Iron Out/Super IO through the softener... and then test your hardness every day until the day after the next regeneration. You want to see 0 gpg soft water every day. If not then increase the salt dose a couple lbs. do a manual regeneration and redo the testing every day until the day after the next regen. To do the IO, mix a 1/4 cup (dry measure) in 2 gallons of warm water, mix thoroughly and pour the water down into the water in the salt tank, not through the salt. Don't breath the fumes. Wait 2 hrs and do a manual regeneration or... do this on the way to bed and schedule a manual regeneration (Extra Regeneration maybe) that will start at 2 AM and you don't need to stand around for two hrs.

I also suggest you remove the prefilter cartridge from its housing so the softener gets the proper pressure and flow it needs.
 

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Hi all,
Here are some pics I just took while changing the whole house filter. The first is water that was left in the filter canister after removing the old filter - I poured it in a white bucket. The second shows what I found on the bottom of the filter canister. And the third is the new pleaded filter, old carbon filter (used to be white) and filter canister (these are clear brand new).
1.jpg2.jpg3.jpg
 

stockman20

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As I said: If you have IRB and it causes a problem like fouling softener resin, you must kill it. You can shock the well, or chlorinate before the softener, or disinfect the softener to do that. Shocking a well can cause problems with water quality although rare, chlorinating all your water is expensive equipment and the softener may have been smaller with no iron, no iron because the chlorination and a backwashed filter would remove it and kill all forms of bacteria.

Your "a bit oily" may mean there is some manganese reducing bacteria or it could be the IRB.

I suggest running Iron Out/Super IO through the softener... and then test your hardness every day until the day after the next regeneration. You want to see 0 gpg soft water every day. If not then increase the salt dose a couple lbs. do a manual regeneration and redo the testing every day until the day after the next regen. To do the IO, mix a 1/4 cup (dry measure) in 2 gallons of warm water, mix thoroughly and pour the water down into the water in the salt tank, not through the salt. Don't breath the fumes. Wait 2 hrs and do a manual regeneration or... do this on the way to bed and schedule a manual regeneration (Extra Regeneration maybe) that will start at 2 AM and you don't need to stand around for two hrs.

I also suggest you remove the prefilter cartridge from its housing so the softener gets the proper pressure and flow it needs.

Hey, Gary. Just sent you a PM.
 

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I have decided that regardless of my iron problems and whether I have an iron bacteria problem or not I'm going to install a new CORRECTLY sized softner. If I still have iron stains after that then I can decide on the iron filter. Using Gary's handy calculator I've come up with something in the 55,000-65,000 range - so right now we're about half-sized.

Many sellers offer to include "fine" resin at an additional cost that is supposedly effective at removing iron. Again, I've come across conflicting information. A couple of local companies have told me to stay away from fine resin because it "causes a drop in water pressure" and "causes a build up of sediment in the resin tank". One dealer told me they would never use fine resin on a well.

I welcome anyone's opinion on the matter.

Thanks!
 

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A correctly sized softener would be smaller if you were to add an iron-removing front end backwashing filter. However with your 42gpg hardness, I guess the extra 13.5 gpg compensation for iron is not so significant as it would be for somebody with less hardness.
 

Gary Slusser

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Seeing the filter housing says your 3.5 ppm of iron is easily converted to ferric iron (rust). That is good if you used an iron filter but, before I'd buy anything, I'd do what I suggested above and get the old softener cleaned out and see how it goes.

You should never use carbon cartridges when there is iron in the water, especially when the iron comes out of solution as yours is. That will block the carbon up and reduce pressure and flow to the softener. The black particles may be carbon from a break in the carbon cartridge. If the new carbon catridge was white, then it looks like you have a manganese or shale problem. I would not use any disposable cartridge filters before the softener. Use the housings/sumps to collect the visible sediment/particles.

A twin tank is not going to do any better than a normal softener. Fine mesh resin increases pressure loss of the softener.

That 54K, it is not the size of the softener you need, it is the amount of capacity you will use between regenerations including a reserve. Go back to the sizing page and do the math yourself so you get a better understanding of how to size a softener.
 

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Seeing the filter housing says your 3.5 ppm of iron is easily converted to ferric iron (rust). That is good if you used an iron filter but, before I'd buy anything, I'd do what I suggested above and get the old softener cleaned out and see how it goes.

You should never use carbon cartridges when there is iron in the water, especially when the iron comes out of solution as yours is. That will block the carbon up and reduce pressure and flow to the softener. The black particles may be carbon from a break in the carbon cartridge. If the new carbon catridge was white, then it looks like you have a manganese or shale problem. I would not use any disposable cartridge filters before the softener. Use the housings/sumps to collect the visible sediment/particles.

A twin tank is not going to do any better than a normal softener. Fine mesh resin increases pressure loss of the softener.

That 54K, it is not the size of the softener you need, it is the amount of capacity you will use between regenerations including a reserve. Go back to the sizing page and do the math yourself so you get a better understanding of how to size a softener.

Thanks Gary,

I'm still performing your above suggestion. I've replaced the carbon filter with a cheap pleated one just to catch sediment. I still feel that we're way undersized based on generic sizing charts i've seen on the web. I've gone through your link in your signature and thought I had it right at 54k with 6-8 days between regens.

I've called around to three dealers in the area. I gave them my parameters (water quality, # people, etc). Two said they would recommend a 2cuft 64,000 capacity softener. The last said he would recommend a 48,000 1.5cuft because I would not have the backwashing power to clean the 65,000 properly. He also thought it should regen every 3 days (with a smaller salt dose) instead of every 6-8 (with a larger dose). Thoughts?

It's amazing how many types of information (or misinformation) there is on this subject.

Thanks,
 
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Gary Slusser

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The max K out of a 2.0 cuft is 60K, and to get that you need to use 30 lbs of salt each regeneration; 60,000/30 lbs = a salt efficiency of 2000 grains/lb.

If you need 54,000 and have a 2.0 cuft, it takes 10lbs/cuft (20 lbs) which is 2700 grains/lb salt efficiency.

In a 2.5 cuft you get 50K with 6 lbs/cuft (15 lbs) or a salt efficiency of 50,000/15lbs = 3333 grains/lb and 54,000/3333 grains per lb = 16.2 lbs (round to 16.5 or 17 lbs depending on your brand of control valve). You also get a constant SFR of 15 gpm. You get 13 gpm in a 2.0 cuft.

So which amount of salt do you want to have to feed your softener for the rest of its life and what SFR do you want to live with?

The DLFC in a 2.5 is IIRC, something like 3.5-4.5 gpm, and if your water service can't do that you have a serious problem.
 
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Reach4

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I'm leaning towards this solution because although the water seems to always test soft when I test it (hot and cold) if you spill water on a clear surface (for example a refrigerator shelf) and the water evaporates, it leaves behind a white, chalky residue which I believe is calcium. This leads me to believe that hard water (and probably iron too) is bleeding through.
That is normal. The white material is sodium chloride or sodium bicarbonate or sodium something or other.
Every calcium or magnesium ion that you take out of the water during softening gets replaced by 2 sodium ions.
 
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The max K out of a 2.0 cuft is 60K, and to get that you need to use 30 lbs of salt each regeneration; 60,000/30 lbs = a salt efficiency of 2000 grains/lb.

If you need 54,000 and have a 2.0 cuft, it takes 10lbs/cuft (20 lbs) which is 2700 grains/lb salt efficiency.

In a 2.5 cuft you get 50K with 6 lbs/cuft (12 lbs) or a salt efficiency of 50,000/12lbs = 4166 grains/lb and 54,000/3333 grains per lb = 16.2 lbs (round to 16.5 or 17 lbs depending on your brand of control valve). You also get a constant SFR of 15 gpm. You get 13 gpm in a 2.0 cuft.

So which amount of salt do you want to have to feed your softener for the rest of its life and what SFR do you want to live with?

The DLFC in a 2.5 is IIRC, something like 3.5-4.5 gpm, and if your water service can't do that you have a serious problem.

Thanks Gary,

I think you mean In a 2.5 cuft you get 50K with 6 lbs/cuft (15 lbs), correct? Also, this math assumes that it is regenerating once every seven days - which I would prefer. Should I be regenerating more often because of my 3.37ppm of iron?

Using 2.5gpm for two showers, 2.5gpm for four faucets, 3.5gpm for washing machine, and 1.5gpm for two toilets I get 21.5 peak SFR if they are all on at the same time. With only two of us, I figure the max we ever use is about 13gpm.

It makes more sense to go with the 2.5cuft since I'll gain not only more capacity, but a higher SFR. You can see where my confusion comes from when I view pages like this: http://www.discountwatersofteners.com/fleck-5600-sxt-on-demand-80-000-grain-water-softener.html and see that the 2.5cuft, 80k units are designed for homes with 1-2 people and 76-100 gpg hardness!!

I'm not sure what DLFC and IIRC mean...but when I turn on both the hot and cold water at my wash basin I get about 4.75 GPM, so I'm guessing the piping at the softener would allow for AT LEAST that. So I should be fine with the 2.5cuft required backwash rate.
 
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