Pressure tank

FWIW, the CSV is in a class of several new and very old systems. Heres one: http://www.flomatic.com/index.asp?lg=1&w=pages&pid=223

And Jaquizzi had their own system on the market for many years, I do not think it still is marketed.

just put in a pump that can meet the needs of any and all watering, install a csv with a 20gal tank and be done with it. all the extra thinking is like a rocking chair, gives you something to do but really gets u nowhere.

sure that may not be the exact best system to perfectly meet their needs but what am i to do.. move in with these people for a month to find out how they exactly use water?? its the best turn-key system i've found to date... for damn near any application.

ballvalve said:

FWIW, the CSV is in a class of several new and very old systems. Heres one: http://www.flomatic.com/index.asp?lg=1&w=pages&pid=223

And Jaquizzi had their own system on the market for many years, I do not think it still is marketed.

Click to expand...

Yeah the idea is not new. Not only where several different brands on the market years ago but, many pump installers were making their own by drilling a hole in a pressure reducing valve. It was always the drilled hole that caused the failure. The drilled hole will clog up the same way holes in a showerhead clog up, and the pump would be destroyed.

The Cycle Stop Valve doesn’t have a drilled hole. It has half moon notches that come together when the valve closes, to form a bypass hole. This way each time the valve opens the hole is split in half, allowing any debris or buildup to flush through. The patented half moon design of the CSV solved the clogging problem and also eliminated water hammer when the valve closes. Solving these problems is what makes the CSV the most reliable pump control available, and gives new life to an old idea.

Other valves on the market use the drilled hole design and still claim to be just like a Cycle Stop Valve. I know I should be flattered but, the drilled hole design is flawed and the failures of these brand X valves gives the real Cycle Stop Valve a bad reputation.

Most valve companies do not understand pumps. They didn’t know the minimum flow possible for different types of pumps. They didn’t know the correct pressure settings to make the valves work with different size tanks, and many other things. Copying my minimum flow requirements and installation instructions has made brand X valves function very similar to a CSV, until the hole clogs and destroys the pump.

The Jacuzzi Aqua Genie 200 was very similar in design to the CSV. Some installers figured out how to work within the narrow parameters where the AG200 functioned well. Some of these are still working 30 years later, as we replace one with a CSV occasionally.

When Franklin bought out Jacuzzi they were using the AG400. Franklin quickly stopped making the Aqua Genie, as they did not want a pump control that would make a pump last 30+ years. Instead they opted to go with the variable speed type pumps that are more profitable. Variable speed pumps also fall right in line with their “planned obsolescence” guidelines, requiring that pumps last an average of less than seven years. I am sure the variable speed pumps are not even lasting an average of seven years. Isn’t marketing great? It tries to steer you away from the most cost effective solution.

justwater said:

just put in a pump that can meet the needs of any and all watering, install a csv with a 20gal tank and be done with it. all the extra thinking is like a rocking chair, gives you something to do but really gets u nowhere.

sure that may not be the exact best system to perfectly meet their needs but what am i to do.. move in with these people for a month to find out how they exactly use water?? its the best turn-key system i've found to date... for damn near any application.

Click to expand...

Thanks Justin! The CSV with a 20 gallon tank is a good choice. However, I find very little difference in performance using the 4.4 gallon tank with the CSV.

Larger tanks also work well with the CSV, you just have to wait until the tank is empty before the pump starts and you start getting constant pressure from the CSV. An 80 gallon tank with a 40/60 switch and the CSV set at 58 PSI gives you 25 gallons of drawdown, constant pressure after that, and a 2 minute fill time. With the non-adjustable valves like the CSV1-60, you just have to adjust the pressure switch to 42/62 to get the same effect.

If I were you, I would start designing a smart CSV with good electronics that would get the larger electricity cost down. Without irrigation, a lot of folks dont want to see that meter spin an extra 4 or 10 minutes. For the guy that saved that by changing to compact florescents, he would be pretty unhappy.

Keeping it simple has great advantages, but unless we get our economy back, 10 bucks a month is starting to register on peoples money meter as important.

And if, as you say, pumps are designed to last 7 years now, I'm not convinced you can beat them with extended run time. As to the relatively constant pressure, I just use a regulator on the house.

Frankly, I think we can all agree that pumps generally die because no-one checks them, adjusts them, and tests the tanks and amp draw every year or so. In the regard of the consumer that stays in his recliner all weekend, perhaps the CSV would pay back.

ballvalve said:

If I were you, I would start designing a smart CSV with good electronics that would get the larger electricity cost down. Without irrigation, a lot of folks dont want to see that meter spin an extra 4 or 10 minutes. For the guy that saved that by changing to compact florescents, he would be pretty unhappy.

Click to expand...

The meter doesn’t spin 4-10 minutes extra. No matter how large the pressure tank, you can always get the recommended 2 minutes of run time by setting the pressure correctly. The CSV doesn’t need any electronics. That is what makes it smart.

ballvalve said:

Keeping it simple has great advantages, but unless we get our economy back, 10 bucks a month is starting to register on peoples money meter as important.

Click to expand...

Maybe you misunderstood, but the extra 10 bucks a month was on a system that was purposely set up to make the CSV use more electricity. If you never have a draw large enough to even use the water in the pressure tank, and you set the pressure to make the pump run extra time refilling the tank, of course it will use a little more electricity. Most people actually see a decrease in the electric bill from eliminating excessive cycling. It all depends on how you use water, but it rarely makes enough difference to detect.

OK guys and gals Beany asked a simple question! Everyone made it a contest. KISS, Install a Cycle Stop Valve, set it and forget it, Beany will love it!

Plumber111 said:

Other well control valves use a hole that, as stated by some multiple times, "Will become clogged and burn up the pump."

Now I'll ask: Wouldn't the clogged hole do nothing more than make the control valve just be a "dead man" in the line without affecting the performance and the pump would then just operate in "standard" mode with the pressure switch?

Thanks.

Click to expand...

No. The CSV is installed before the pressure tank/pressure switch. So the water passing through the hole in other valves and the notch in a CSV is to keep the pump/motor cool. When the hole in other valves becomes clogged, the pump/motor will melt down and be totally destroyed in about five minutes.

Water spewing through a hole will cause it to be clogged, the same way holes in a showerhead become clogged, and the pump/motor will be destroyed. The “notch” is basically two half moons that come together to make a hole when the valve closes. When the valve is open, the “hole” splits into two half moon notches, which will easily flush clean of any buildup or debris.

The CSV has advantages for every size water system, even those with only two people in a small house with no irrigation. The CSV allows for a big reduction in the size of pressure tank needed. Remember you only have 1300 square feet. So the difference between installing a “properly sized” 40 gallon size tank compared to the 4.4 gallon size tank needed with the CSV can mean being able to use a closet for cloths and shoes instead of for a large pressure tank. The CSV with the small tank will give the components just as much or more life expectancy as a non-CSV system with a big pressure tank.

As for “superior performance”, the constant pressure delivered by the CSV is far superior to the continuous high/low pressure experienced with pressure tank only systems. Constant pressure showers are much more enjoyable than a shower where the pressure goes from minimum to maximum, 40 to 60, three to six times during a normal shower. Constant pressure keeps instant water heaters from shutting off during a shower, makes a washing machine fill faster, and reduces water hammer on pipe and fittings.

I guess you really don’t need an automatic transmission in your car either. There is really no advantage over the old stick shift and clutch. There is really no benefit to performance or longevity of the equipment for having an automatic transmission. But isn’t it nice to have all that clutching and shifting taken care of automatically. You no longer have to worry if you are in the right gear at the right time, and can just enjoy the ride. The CSV is like the automatic transmission for a water system.

Thanks for the information and clarification. I stand that a well control/cycle valve is a great addition when needed or wanted.

Another question for anyone. Are their any recommendations for joints/connections on the backpressure side of a CSV? What's the pressure you typically see on the backpressure side if something like only one sink or a dishwasher is running and the pump running?

We typically see 160 PSI PE installed for standard well systems running a typical 30/50. But have seen joint connections easily leak with no rhyme or reason from ranges as low as 20 PSI. No overtorching and doesn't appear to be anything wrong with the fitting or band. Seen it with brass or gray plastic fittings as well. (Usually banded insert fittings on 160 PSI PE. No fusion.)

Just looking for information and recommendations to resolve any chance of leaks on the high pressure side.

Thanks.

Thought I would bump this one time. Hope that's ok.

Just wondering if anyone had information on pressures on the intake-i.e. "high"- side of a CSV and PE pipe.

Thanks.

You could use 200 PSI poly and long nipples.

LLigetfa said:

You could use 200 PSI poly and long nipples.

Click to expand...

Thanks. Any idea on how high the pressure gets on the inlet side all the way down to the pump?

That would depend on the pump, how deep it is, and what the water level is. A typical pressure would be around 150 PSI.

LLigetfa said:

That would depend on the pump, how deep it is, and what the water level is. A typical pressure would be around 150 PSI.

Click to expand...

150 PSI is pretty strong. Thanks.

150 PSI back pressure is nothing. Nearly all pipes have a burst pressure of 2 to 5 times the pressure rating. The backpressure is a function of how much your particular pump can build. Some submersibles can only build 80 PSI, others as much as 175 PSI.

The average 125 PSI backpressure from a CSV actually eliminates 500 PSI water hammer spikes. Water hammer can be 10 times the pressure you see on the gauge, and can happen from starting a pump at full flow, as it does without a CSV. Having more than one check valve in the system can further intensify water hammer. Every time you hear a “thump” when your pump starts or stops, a 500 PSI water hammer shock wave has just ricocheted through your entire plumbing system.

A CSV makes the pump start and stop while pumping a rate of only 1 GPM. This eliminates the high-pressure pulse that happens when a pump starts and tries to get all the water moving instantly at 10 or 20 GPM. Since the CSV only allows 1 GPM through while the pump is shut off, the check valve does not slam shut, eliminating a water hammer pulse on pump shut off as well.

Starting the pump against the backpressure of a CSV closed to 1 GPM also gives the pump a soft start. Starting amperage is decreased the same as if starting the motor with no load.

Backpressure is a good thing. Backpressure makes the pump think it is in a deeper well. This actually makes the work easier for the pump (lower amps), eliminates water hammer, and delivers a soft start to a regular full speed pump.

Your more likely to blow off an insert fitting from the water hammer and excessive cycling that happens when you don’t have a CSV.

Thanks for the response. Helps. Another question:

If a traditional switch and tank system has the humongous pressure spikes, why do they never register on a gauge? Obviously the tank neutralizes some along with something running at the time. But I personally have never seen a hammer spike on any residential well system registered on a gauge.

Sorry for all the questions. Just figuring it all out.

Thanks.

The gauge is close to the tank, which does cushion the hammer. This is why a pressure switch must always be close to the pressure tank. Place the pressure switch too far from the tank and it will bounce on and off like a telegraph machine from the water hammer that happens when the pump starts and stops.

If you get a cheap gauge (not liquid filled) you can see water hammer if you place the gauge at the check valve or at the faucet or maybe a dead end in the line. But it won’t show the peak of the spike and you have to look quick because water hammer only last a fraction of a second. The transient wave that happens travels down the pipes at an average 5,000 feet per second. Even if you had a thousand feet of pipe in your house, a transient pressure wave will travel the entire length of the house plumbing in 1/5th of a second. So the whole thing happens in about a 1/10th of a second. I think they make gauges that record peaks, but you can really see it in a computer generated simulation of water hammer.

Most pumps can’t even build enough pressure to pop off an insert or push loose a glued fitting. The extreme pressure from numerous little water hammer spikes each time the pump starts or stops is usually what causes damage to pipe and fittings.