Your preferred wire type

[Odysseus99]

I looked thru the Nat. Elec. Code and found no reference to a required type of wire in a submersible-pump well, other than the requirement that any wire in a wet location be made for that.

So what's different about what they call "submersible" wire?

Any reason why not to use underground feeder wire (UF), or underground service entrance (USE), or XHHW or even THHW?

Ever have an electrical inspector call you on your wire?

I'd prefer to get my wire from a wire retailer because it's cheaper. Probably get UF or USE for the thick insulation.

 

[Craigpump]

UF isn't really suitable for down hole use, it's way too stiff so you can never get it to lay against the pipe. If you want added protection buy double insulated submersible pump cable.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Valveman]

Double jacketed direct burial cable will work as well. Some people call it tray cable. I think it is THHN. It is 4 stranded copper wires in color jackets then wrapped in a round black second jacket.

 

[Boycedrilling]

I've pulled pumps that had been installed with SO cord. Though I wouldn't use it. That stuff is 2 or 3 times the price of submersible cable

 

[Boycedrilling]

Just looked up my costs for wire from my electrical wholesaler and my pump supplier. Using #10 wire as an example. Individual strands of thhn cost about the same as 10/3 w grand Db nm. I don't use the twisted PVC sub wire, I only use the double jacketed sub wire any more. I cost me about 40 cents per foot more than the thhn or direct bury. Tray cable cost 28 cent a foot more than sub wire.

So the question is, is saving 40 cents a foot worth it to use something that MIGHT work?

THHN might be rated for wet locations, but it sure doesn't have the abrasion resistance of double jacketed sub wire. Or even twisted PVC sub wire that would be hardly any more expensive.

A professional certainly isn't going to risk it for either liability concerns or potential costs of warranty claims

 

[Craigpump]

I've been using Regency flat, parrellel stranded for the past 5 years or so with great luck. It's soft so it lays against the pipe nice, splices nice and straight, easy to work with. It's another $0.09 a foot, big deal..

 

[Valveman]

I don't like the flat jacket because it was hard to get back flat without rolling it on a spool every time you come out. The round jacket maybe a little larger diameter, but not compared to getting a twist in the flat jacket wire. I have used hundreds of thousands of feet of round, direct burial, double jacket wire with a PVC jacket. It works great on a 50' house well or a 2,000' salt water well. Has good abrasion properties, easy to spool, splice, band to the pipe, etc. Looked something like this.

 

[Craigpump]

When ever we pull a pump we spool the wire back onto a reel, it makes the job so much easier, cleaner, keeps the wire out of the dirt....

 

[Valveman]

With the round jacket stuff I can just coil it up on a pallet or piece of plywood. It doesn't get twisted and goes back in just as easy. On the small wells I can roll it up on a spool. But those 1200'-1600' salt water wells with #2 or #0 wire is hard to spool unless you bring a spool trailer or truck. We just make big loops on the ground and it goes back easy and doesn't get twisted like the flat does.

 

[Smooky]

Another thing to consider is wire that is not intended to go in potable well water may have lead in the colored plastic wire insulation.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00020984.htm

During a July 1992 follow-up clinic visit, he mentioned that for approximately 20 years he had habitually chewed on the plastic insulation that he stripped off the ends of electrical wires. Samples of the copper wire with white, blue, and yellow plastic insulation were obtained and analyzed for lead content. The clear plastic outer coating (present on all colors of wire) and the copper wire contained no lead; however, the colored coatings contained 10,000-39,000 ug of lead per gram of coating. *** On receipt of these results, he was instructed immediately to discontinue chewing the wire coating.


http://www.paigeelectric.com/specs/P7323-SP.pdf

http://www.kalaswire.com/wp-content/uploads/Kalas-PUMP-Catalog-compressed.pdf

 

[Valveman]

Yeah a lot of things have lead in them. But it is usually not the lead that is the problem. Same as in Flint Michigan, the pipe has always had lead in it, but it didn't cause any problems until they pumped acidic or caustic water through it. Acidic or caustic water will strip any kind of metals into the water, not just lead. Just like this guy was chewing on the plastic wire, and kids in CA were eating toys painted with lead paint, then lead will get into the body easily. The outer coating of the wire did not have lead in it. And when spliced and sealed it should not even be in contact with the water. I have been using this kind of wire for decades, and have had many test done, which never show any lead.

But if you have acidic or caustic water, you should be concerned about everything in the water. Bad water will strip iron, copper, zinc, and even chromium from Stainless Steel into the water. People live to be 100 years old in houses with lead in the plumbing, red brass pump impellers with lead in them, and a lot of other stuff. Even solid lead pipes won't hurt anything, especially after it grows a patina coating on the inside that keeps the water from even touching metal. This stuff doesn't get into the water unless there is a water quality issue.

So kids eating lead painted toys and electricians eating lead in wire coatings has cost the people of this country billions of dollars getting lead out of things that were never a problem to start with. Eliminating lead has also greatly reduced the quality of a lot of plumbing fixtures.

If you have a water quality issue, you should be afraid of a lot of stuff leaching into the water, not just lead. If you don't have a water quality issue, lead was never a problem.

 

[Ballvalve]

I wouldn't worry about lead in plastic insulation, but rather all the chemicals related to BPA that make us guys grow tits, and your daughter a beard. And we all know about painters!

 

[Smooky]

I don’t think that any of us in the over-the-hill crowd has to worry about lead too much but if you have young children it’s another story. Even though there may not be very much lead in the well from the wire, it is another source of lead. Lead builds up in the body so many small exposures to lead can result in high blood lead levels. Young children are particularly vulnerable to the toxic effects of lead and can suffer profound and permanent adverse health effects, particularly affecting the development of the brain and nervous system. Babies and young children can also be more highly exposed to lead because they often put their hands and other objects that can have lead from dust or soil on them into their mouths. Lead also causes long-term harm in adults, including increased risk of high blood pressure and kidney damage. Exposure of pregnant women to high levels of lead can cause miscarriage, stillbirth, premature birth and low birth weight, as well as minor malformations. A pregnant woman’s exposure to lead can result in exposure to her developing baby. As far as I know there is no safe level of lead in the body. Lead poisoning is preventable and I think we ought to do our part.
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs379/en/
http://familydoctor.org/familydoctor/en/kids/home-safety/lead-poisoning-in-children.html
http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/lead_poisoning.aspx

 

[Valveman]

If us "over the hill" crowd don't have to worry about lead, then the children of today certainly do not have to worry about it. We as "over the hill" crowd lived with lead fixtures, lead solder, red led brass pumps, and many other things. The fact that it didn't kill us is proof lead doesn't normally disolve into water.

Lead paint and things that cause lead dust is a different story. People who mine and manufacture things with lead should be careful, but we know how to do those things safely.

I agree we should do everything we can to limit people's exposure to lead. But removing lead from everything is just not necessary. Of course many people believe that man made global warming is causing sea levels to rise and polar bears to go extinct. Many also believe that guns in the hands of law abiding citizens is the cause of all mass murders and such. So it is no wonder so many believe lead must be removed from everything, even if it hasn't hurt the "over the hill" crowd in all these decades. Unfortunately it is just another form of control.

The government is saving use from global warming, all those guns just running around killing people, lead poisening, and many other things. Wanting the government to save us from everthing, gives the government full control of everything. I for one would like to remain responsible for my own life. I wouldn't buy lead paint. And if i was using it with hot or acidic water, i wouldn't buy any pipe or fitting with lead in it. But we always go to extremes and just stop using things like lead, then we find out later that what we used instead was far worse, like BPA and other things.

When we started letting politics instead of science determine things like this, we turned our lives over to the politicians, and they will take full advantage of our stupidity.

 

[PumpMd]

I don't like the flat jacket because it was hard to get back flat without rolling it on a spool every time you come out. The round jacket maybe a little larger diameter, but not compared to getting a twist in the flat jacket wire. I have used hundreds of thousands of feet of round, direct burial, double jacket wire with a PVC jacket. It works great on a 50' house well or a 2,000' salt water well. Has good abrasion properties, easy to spool, splice, band to the pipe, etc. Looked something like this.
View attachment 33516

I am still coming across Franklin wire in the wells holding up.

 

[Valveman]

Yeah that was good wire, but Franklin didn't make it. Back then if you purchased enough you could get your name printed on it. I did that for a few years myself. That wire looks like Rome or probably Essex.

 

[PumpMd]

Did you keep some with your name on it for a memento?

 

[Craigpump]

A guy in Vegas at the NGWA show tried to sell me double insulated wire with my name on it. His sales pitch was that the homeowner would know who did it and it would help with theft prevention... Yeah, right

 

[Valveman]

Did you keep some with your name on it for a memento?

There is a lot of stuff from the 70's that I wish I had kept one of just for a keep sake, or at least got a picture. I was young and didn't think that far ahead, and we didn't have a camera/phone in our pockets back then.

 

[PumpMd]

There is a lot of stuff from the 70's that I wish I had kept one of just for a keep sake, or at least got a picture. I was young and didn't think that far ahead, and we didn't have a camera/phone in our pockets back then.

very true, main thing was that the franklin wire was similar to your favorite wire. I notice the 69 Burks pump had this wire on it.

Some our bigger 6 awg thw wire that looks just like the Franklin wire. We also use flat & twisted wire as well.