Who Builds a Shower Pan

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Al G.

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I'm tearing out a preformed shower and want to replace it with a custom mud base pan. I don't think the drain needs to move but I suspect the connection needs to be different. Should I be looking for a plumber or tile setter to make sure the drain is correct and to build the pan? I'm going to hire all the work out so I know I eventually need a tile setter but I'm not sure if that's where I start.
 

Jadnashua

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You have a conundrum. In many places, the plumber is legally responsible for installing the drain and ensuring things are waterproof, but he will often not do any tile work. The tile guy (unless he has a plumbing license, too) is often not legally able to deal with the waterproofing of the pan and install the drain.

The hassle comes in that to meet code (although it is not enforced reliably) and function well, the liner needs to be installed on a sloped surface, and if you build a 'conventional' shower, that requires the tile guy to put in what is called a pre-sloped mudbed. Then, and only then, can the drain and liner be installed. The plumber has to come in and do some prep work, then the tile guy does some prep work, then the plumber has to come back to finish his part, then the tile guy...as you can see, this can be a scheduling nightmare and few actually follow it to the letter.

It gets a little easier if you choose to use a surface waterproofing system. Often with those, you can install the drain and then build the sloped bed around it. THen, the waterproofing is installed. SOme inspectors don't really car who lays the waterproofing as long as a flood test is done, but that can't be done until the waterproofing and the drain are installed.

Some tile guys get away with doing the plumbing, too, but it really depends on the local inspectors, maybe a union if you happen to be in an area with unions who does what.

But, your first decision is to decide on the method of shower construction you prefer: conventional with a liner and clamping drain, or a surface applied bonded membrane, and if the later, do you want to use a sheet waterproofing material, or a liquid applied one. My preference is a sheet membrane.

Each of these methods can work, but each of them must be done carefully by someone who knows what they are doing and can follow instructions and the industry guidelines. There are a huge number of people out there that ignore some fundamentals, like you can't put a hole in the liner to nail on cbu on the curb, or attach it with nails below the flood plane and that you really do need to seal the seams properly. Lots of people can make it look good, but it may be falling apart in months, but maybe take several years before you can tell.

A properly built shower should last until you decide you want a change, not be changed because it failed. Built right, it should be there forever.

Look at Noble, Schluter, Laticrete, Mapei for their approach to building a shower. If you want to get technical, buy a license for the electronic copy of the TCNA handbook (or buy a hardcopy) and research the accepted industry shower build techniques, decide on a method, then research the products needed to make it that way. The TCNA does not endorse products, only methods. That's Tile Council of North America, the group that sets many of the standards on how to make things with tile. They, along with ANSI, perform testing and set standards for the materials needed to do not only tile, but other building trade practices.

For one method, www.schluter.com has a bunch of videos on how to build a shower using Kerdi - one of many products out there. If nothing else, it will give you an idea of the methodology and logic for using this type of shower build. Feel free to look at the other company's products and their variations on that theme.
 

ShowerDude

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Al G


show us a few pics of current setup, and we will try and help you.

call your local inspectors office and inquire about local compliance, rather than random intermet advice.

A mud shower pan is a premium install and youll need a qualified tile contractor for that.

while some plumbers are also expert at mud pans, its usually the tile professional.

in my work area I am allowed to make only the drain riser connection as that will happen as the pan is poured. I have a master plumber verifying my trap and venting prior to the pan.

my professional tile contractor advice to you:

stay away from foam kits that come in a box, and source a pro tile contractor with a history of shower builds.

I find most people prefer to get tile shower advice from a tile professional, rather than retired internet posters with no hands on experience, but thats just me!


On this site you will find Roberto and John whipple to be a good source for pro tile advice, and of course the best plumbers i n the world to help guide you.

lets start with a few pics and your plan for your new tile of choice.?


best of luck - redshoe
 

Jadnashua

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As you can tell, the pros on here tend to ignore what I say, even though it often corresponds to what they have said over and over. FWIW, I have built a couple of showers and by no means does that make me an expert, I have also witnessed LOTS of failures from so-called professionals and have been to Schluter, Mapei, and Laticrete's training facilities and been shown by professionals with hands-on after their show and tell, so got the word from the people that make the stuff on how they expect it to go together and WHY it works the way it does, then used it under their guidance to help point out some of the nuances. I'll probably never be as neat and fast as they are at installing their products, but that does not mean that I don't know how it goes together. I catch these 'pros' at some fundamental errors once in awhile, and they just hate that, and complain that I don't live in the real world with real world problems and make-shift fixes. Nothing in life is perfect and ideal, you have to make accommodations, but understanding the rationale behind why the industry standard and recommendations are what they are IS a good basis to proceed. The average DIY'er on his first job just does not have enough experience to understand some of the liberties the 'pros' take, knowing what they know. That 'solution' may work, but a DIY'er doesn't know what the restrictions are and take that as a generic - it will work, which is often, not the case. It might work fine in the situation encountered, and it may be terrible. A case in point...industry standards on large format tile when installed with an offset, says do not lay them in a brick pattern. Why, because many of them are slightly warped, and that would put the lowest part opposite the highest part of the adjacent tile leading to the edge sticking up (referred to as lippage in the industry). So one of them counters, says look here, I just did it and it works fine. Well, without explaining WHY it worked, and the rationale in the industry guidelines, the example seems to point that I, and the industry, don't have a clue. It WILL work, IF the tile you select is VERY flat. Most aren't. Leave out that one fact, and someone seeing the example by a pro, if they try to replicate it, their results may be far from pleasing. So, I try to inject the rationale, and these guys get all bent out of shape.

So, like in any situation, see what is said, evaluate and confirm. One outlier may be a red flag that maybe that isn't the greatest way to do things.

What is sometimes not apparent is that those companies that do make some foam panels and pans, their 'systems' work just fine if you instead make the pan out of deckmud, too. Deckmud is more flexible in that it can be shaped to account for your local needs. While the foam can be cut easily, it may not be in the shape or have the drain where you want it, and thus be less than ideal. But, properly installed, in the right situation, works very well and has some advantages. There's more material costs with the preformed parts, but the time to install is much less, and if it works, the end result is a proper, long-lasting shower. It doesn't always work out, but, as I said, it is not a requirement to use it...FWIW, the University of Syracuse, NY is rebuilding all of their dormitory showers, and has standardized on the Schluter Kerdi system. Not because it is the cheapest, but that it proved to be very reliable in their initial trials. They needed to change them because the original ones were failing because of one thing or another, and of all of the available 'systems' out there, they found that this one met their needs best.

If you want some non-confrontational advice as a second source, I suggest you try www.johnbridge.com. These guys here are good, but, IMHO, sometimes are somewhat jaded on what works, and what is 'required' to produce a viable product. IOW, there's more than one way to accomplish the same goal.
 

JohnfrWhipple

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Start by planning it all out. Every great shower starts with a tile layout and lighting plan first. Then pick your materials. Decide if your building a "Builder Special" or something a little better. Pick a waterproofing system, check that the tile and grout can work with that.

Define your tolerances.

A tile man can help with all of this. A plumber can do the drain work. The good ones can do the pre-slope. Some like to have the tile guy do it. I prefer to plumbers to hook up the drain and leave the rest to me.

Make sure you flood test the work! That is one of the most important steps.

...I find most people prefer to get tile shower advice from a tile professional, rather than retired internet posters with no hands on experience, but thats just me!....

LOL - Does Jim still post here? It so nice not seeing his mumble jumble. Love Love Love the Ignore feature.
 
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Al G.

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Thanks for the responses and the education on the responsibilities of the plumber and tile setter. I know what I need to look for now.
 

JohnfrWhipple

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Thanks for the responses and the education on the responsibilities of the plumber and tile setter. I know what I need to look for now.


Good News.

Remember your tile guy will need to know what type of tile you are using. So he can best pick the waterproofing system. Most tile manufactures want to see a modified thin-set when installing their tile and most tile installers prefer this type of system.

My favorite recommendations for shower building these days are the ones from Noble Company, Laticrete and Ardex. Not to many showers come up that one of these three companies can not handle.

You need to find out what types of thin-set you have available locally. What type of shower deck mud. What grouts. Etc. Once you know this, your tile type you can make sure they all play nice together before ordering anything.
 
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