When to replace old cast iron pipes

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Lois Lane

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I have a vintage blue tile 1958 full bath with separate shower stall. Someone over 30 years ago had painted the floor and bottom two layers of tile with what looks like an epoxy or butyl rubber paint. Otherwise the shower looks great. However about 20 years ago the shower started leaking. I have four full bathrooms in my house so I just started using another shower. Now I have decided to get to the bottom of things. I opened the soffit under the shower and saw that the cast iron p-trap was obviously leaking. A simple repair right? Shockingly, I was able to just twist off one end of the p-trap (as in no longer attached to the drain from the shower. But when I cut off the other end of the p-trap, I realized the galvanized pipe going to the main stack (not sure if this is the right word) was NO LONGER ATTACHED! So I opened up the rest of the soffit, to the main stack. What a mess. Many years ago I had some leaking around the toilet in this bathroom which I fixed with a new wax seal. The toilet is right above where these pictures are taken. I have not seen any water leaking since I stopped using the shower. No mold, no water damage, no odor, no slow draining. The sink and the bathtub are connected to a different stack I think. Should I just call the plumber now? Or can I just take care of the shower drain. I was really alarmed by the amount of calcium on the outside of the pipes. I am afraid it means it is leaking from somewhere really slowly over a long period of time. I was also SHOCKED at the catastrophic failure of the shower drain.

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Jadnashua

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Galvanized pipe rusting doesn't surprise me at all. CI can last eons and you'll find it's still a premium material, mostly for two reasons...it won't burn so it useful in larger (mostly commercial) buildings, and waste running through it is MUCH quieter, which is appreciated everywhere.

A shower built almost 70-years ago doesn't owe you anything. FWIW, the industry standards have evolved considerably over the years, so putting a similar construction back probably wouldn't meet today's codes.

Once you resolve how to fix the plumbing (easiest would be to replace with PVC), for actually building a new shower, suggest you check out www.johnbridge.com. Note, built back then, the venting requirements were much less refined...so, today, to pass a code inspection, you may need to address venting properly in your rebuild. Would need a bigger picture of what's there to evaluate that aspect.

Should you decide to transition from the CI to PVC, you'd start at a hub. The galvanized nipple in the nearest one may come out, but it may break off if you tried to unscrew it, or, the threads could be toast in the CI. If the threads are okay, you could use a threaded PVC adapter and pipe dope to make that connection. Otherwise, you may need to remove more and make a connection either with banded couplings if you cut things out, or a donut on a leaded hub connection.
 

Lois Lane

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But I LOVE this vintage blue tile bathroom with the marble Formica countertop and powder coated steel vanity! I almost cried when I had to replace the blue porcelain sinks that had started to rust through. I have already replaced two ugly late 1980's one piece acrylic showers in this house. But it sounds as if the cast iron main stack and sanitary T to the old toilet might last another 30 years or more! Sounds like I should cut the galvanized back as far as I can reach. But I don't think I can reach the galvanized hub on the cast iron stack, at least not without taking out the wall as well, and even then it is difficult to access. I was going to use Fernco flexible fittings and PVC to replace the galvanized pipe I took out. I love the John Bridge tile forum as well. Thanks for all your help again.

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Jeff H Young

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Lois Lane, yes still a very attractive bathroom and I can understand a customer , wanting to save it , but If they want to tear it all out I'm good with that too .
I don't like the existing plumbing to the shower . Technically I'm not sure if you can replace the rotted pieces its not legal work today but in 58 no idea if it ever was legal. it may function without problem but my expectation is not high.
do you need to retile and rebuild a shower pan? do you know the basics of shower pans?
its pretty old cast but can and might give many years of leak free service ( might, might not). how hard is this to get to? is it a big deal to have it leak in a few years or spend a few thousand now?
 

Jadnashua

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FWIW, if it was rusting, it wasn't porcelain! It was glazed (enameled) cast iron (and if much newer and lower quality, not likely, enameled steel). A porcelain sink is glazed porcelain clay.

While common, and in some circumstances can last a long time, galvanized piping isn't a great idea...unlike cast iron, it will rust out much sooner, and IMHO, should never be used in supply lines, but will tend to last longer on waste but nowhere as long as CI.
 

DIYorBust

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I have done a similar repair on a shower with a galvanized drain. In my case the drain filled up with rust, and the galvanized cleanout could not be opened. For 15 bucks, a Pittsburg number 2 pipe cutter will make your life much easier if you have room to operate it https://www.harborfreight.com/no-2-pipe-cutter-62243.html, a sawzall will do it but it's not fun. If you're going to do the job, might as well replace as much as you can reach. I can't remember how I made the connections after cutting, but I didn't rethread, I think I found a no-hub coupling that fit. On the CI side, I'll bet it's a leaded joint which you're better off not messing with anyway.

I'd guess it'll last a pretty long time if you replace the failed locations.
 

Lois Lane

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FWIW, if it was rusting, it wasn't porcelain! It was glazed (enameled) cast iron (and if much newer and lower quality, not likely, enameled steel). A porcelain sink is glazed porcelain clay.

While common, and in some circumstances can last a long time, galvanized piping isn't a great idea...unlike cast iron, it will rust out much sooner, and IMHO, should never be used in supply lines, but will tend to last longer on waste but nowhere as long as CI.
Yes, you are quite right. I should have said enameled cast iron!
 

Lois Lane

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Lois Lane, yes still a very attractive bathroom and I can understand a customer , wanting to save it , but If they want to tear it all out I'm good with that too .
I don't like the existing plumbing to the shower . Technically I'm not sure if you can replace the rotted pieces its not legal work today but in 58 no idea if it ever was legal. it may function without problem but my expectation is not high.
do you need to retile and rebuild a shower pan? do you know the basics of shower pans?
its pretty old cast but can and might give many years of leak free service ( might, might not). how hard is this to get to? is it a big deal to have it leak in a few years or spend a few thousand now?
If the shower leaks, the leak will be obvious pretty quickly, since it is over a finished lower level ceiling. If it leaks at the hub to the cast iron stack, it might be less obvious, because I think water will leak onto the tiled slab floor. The stack runs inside an interior gypsum board wall on one side and what was an exterior brick wall the other (but is now enclosed). I have become a very proficient drywaller, but I still don't want to make another big hole in another wall and replace the stack if I don't have too. I would need to have a plumber do that. There is a PVC cleanout, so someone did some work on it 30 years ago when an addition was built enclosing the exterior wall here. Replacing the shower pan and finding some aesthetically compatible flooring and lower run of tile is probably beyond my DIY ability at this point, so I am keeping my fingers crossed. I don't know much about plumbing. What code issues am I looking at with just replacing the failed galvanized drain? The biggest problem I see is the shower doesn't seem to have a vent.
 
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Lois Lane

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I have done a similar repair on a shower with a galvanized drain. In my case the drain filled up with rust, and the galvanized cleanout could not be opened. For 15 bucks, a Pittsburg number 2 pipe cutter will make your life much easier if you have room to operate it https://www.harborfreight.com/no-2-pipe-cutter-62243.html, a sawzall will do it but it's not fun. If you're going to do the job, might as well replace as much as you can reach. I can't remember how I made the connections after cutting, but I didn't rethread, I think I found a no-hub coupling that fit. On the CI side, I'll bet it's a leaded joint which you're better off not messing with anyway.

I'd guess it'll last a pretty long time if you replace the failed locations.
You are not kidding about cutting the galvanized pipe. My husband and I traded off and worked on each cut for about 20 minutes with a sawsall and a went through two new bi-metal 8/11 TPI "ultimate destruction" blades. Then when the elbow finally came off, it fell through the hole I had cut in the soffit and chipped one of my floor tiles! One more project :(
 

Lois Lane

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Just a diagram of what I think I am looking at. It is really hard to get to the hub, but it looks as if it is threaded. I understand the horizontal run of pipe cannot be sloped too much or a siphon will be created. I might be able to cut it off further back behind the first 45 degree elbow. Definitely my most ambitious plumbing problems so far. Found a bunch of newspaper from July 6, 1958 stuffed up there.
 

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Jeff H Young

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you can try repairing it with out the vent and don't dry wall it for a while, test it and use toilet too make sure it all works good. its poor work though and just know its not right
 

DIYorBust

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It's vented after it drops, which means it could self siphon, but since 1958 the house has not exploded, so you might be okay with this configuration. If you can somehow lower the trap that would do it, but I'm guessing you can't and that's why it is the way it is. If it's a big deal to fix it, and you don't have an inspector coming, I wouldn't sweat it.

Now as for the cast, I'd rather connect upstream from the joint unless it's threaded and comes out easy, which is unlikely. What do you do if the threads are no good or something breaks? Better to just tie into a few inches of galvanized in my opinion, unless the joint is actually leaking.
 

Lois Lane

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It's vented after it drops, which means it could self siphon, but since 1958 the house has not exploded, so you might be okay with this configuration. If you can somehow lower the trap that would do it, but I'm guessing you can't and that's why it is the way it is. If it's a big deal to fix it, and you don't have an inspector coming, I wouldn't sweat it.

Now as for the cast, I'd rather connect upstream from the joint unless it's threaded and comes out easy, which is unlikely. What do you do if the threads are no good or something breaks? Better to just tie into a few inches of galvanized in my opinion, unless the joint is actually leaking.
I like that answer and I think I agree. I looked at AAV (what a brilliant idea), but I don't have anyplace to provide an access at least 4 inches above the drain arm that would be unobtrusive, and I don't know if it is code in my area. Thanks for explaining the vent set up! I think I get it now.
you can try repairing it with out the vent and dont dry wall it for a while, test it and use toilet too make sure it all works good. its poor work though and just know its not right
I really don't want to do a poor job, since I have cursed about the poor repairs, shortcuts, and poor work the previous owners had done on the addition many times! Do you have any suggestions about using an AAV? I know that one day the cast iron stack is going to need to be replaced, I just don't want to be the one who has to do it! It looks like a world of pain.

I love the "Keeps Coming Back" badge! Being pretty clueless about plumbing, I really appreciate the help :)
 

Jeff H Young

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AAV is not suitable for this application. I'd rather have the existing configuration than the AAV.

No fan of AAV but if vent can be installed up in wall above flood level I see no reason to prefer existing work. so I can't understand unsuitable except would consider the existing to be unsuitable and wonder if it would pass inspection? and passing inspection don't mean nothing except that you can cover it up and live with the results .
 

DIYorBust

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Where I live AAVs are allowed only on a sink or lav. At least that's how I understand it. Also, I don't think you can bury an aav in the walls.
 

Jeff H Young

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It might work fine and might not all I can tell you is that is plumbed wrong and Ive got low expectations. Id maybe plumb it for you like that but id tell you it likely will have problems .
 

Reach4

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Just a diagram of what I think I am looking at. It is really hard to get to the hub, but it looks as if it is threaded. I understand the horizontal run of pipe cannot be sloped too much or a siphon will be created. I might be able to cut it off further back behind the first 45 degree elbow. Definitely my most ambitious plumbing problems so far. Found a bunch of newspaper from July 6, 1958 stuffed up there.
Not really up to IPC if that is a vent stack, as you guess because vent is not vertical high enough, but maybe it would get an exception. It would work in practice I think. But if that pipe on top is from the vented lavatory, then you might be just fine vent-wise.

Now bringing the toilet lower would be better still, and everybody would like that. In other words you cap the toilet input on that big fitting, and instead insert a wye below to receive the toilet below the shower drain.

Trap is new 2-inch glued plastic. Two-inch trap arm can go up to 8 ft.
I am thinking that after some cutting, you start turning the elbow to the right of "tough to reach" nipple. Hope one end of the nipple unscrews. I am not a plumber.
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Jeff H Young

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she has 45 defree offset in shower trap arm it isnt like the sketch above no offsets allowed.
the vent being below flood level not quite code but funtions ok most times
 
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