What kind of high temperature sealant can be used for this?

[Melissa2007B]

I posted in another thread here, about our water heater woes. We had a plumber come out today, for an estimate on everything, and he quoted us prices that were so sky high that we cant afford a plumber.

ONE of the issues is this draft hood. This is a UBC modular house and it's been this way since 2004 when it was put on the foundation on this lot, so I guess it wasn't required to be code compliant then, OR inspected. Government regulations are just so helpful, right?

Anyway, it looks like the top part of this, could actually be "compliant" and safe, the way it was done, but the part where the duct meets the top of the water heater is likely leaking a little CO2. Not a LOT, because we have CO2 detectors in the bedrooms now, and mine is right next to this laundry room and the levels are ok.

But here's my idea. Are there any good high temperature sealants that can be applied to a surface that's already hot, then they set and will seal that crack between the water heater and the duct? I'm guessing around $6 at Home Depot and I can do it myself, if I find one that can be applied hot, and set to seal that and withstand the temperature of the gasses coming out, which I doubt are very high temp anyway?

 

[Reach4]

Furnace cement.

Read the directions about whether it is OK for the surface to be hot when applied.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Dana]

Any water-glass sealer (old-school automotive muffler patch sealer) can be applied hot and can withstand the temperatures.

You don't HAVE a draft hood! Somebody took the draft hood out and connected the water heater's flue to directly to the vent piping with that kludgey collar coupling. Without a draft hood the likelihood of copious flue condensation soars. The function of the draft hood is to provide sufficient dilution air to raise the dew point of the gases going up the flue. Flue condensate from natural gas is mildly acidic, and will eventually eat through the B-vent.

Buy an after-market replacement draft hood, and install it properly. Test it for backdrafts and make corrections (to the make-up air or other aspects of the house). If it can't be dealt with properly, buy a power-drafted unit or an electric water heater.

 

[Melissa2007B]

No one took it out. This is an IRC modular home that was built in 2004 on our lot, on a regular foundation, and this is apparently the way they did it, AND it didn't require inspection.

They appear to have done a sort of draft hood, with that space above, going into the top pipe, though I don't know what that drippy beige stuff is, coming down from that hole.

I'm a senior and cant afford a plumber, at $65o an hour that they seem to be charging around here, AND I don't know how to do all this myself.

There's a LOT that we would LIKE to do, IF we could find an affordable plumber in the west Denver area!

 

[Reach4]

IF

If you wanted a suggestion....

You did not name your expensive plumber, did you? I expect there was a reason for that.

 

[Melissa2007B]

If you wanted a suggestion....

You did not name your expensive plumber, did you? I expect there was a reason for that.

Not sure what you're getting at. I'd rather not get sued for naming someone publicly. The first job that we just did was with a rooter company. They'd been out here over the years, rooting the plumbing from the house to the main sewer line, as it clogged up every 8-12 months, since we owned the house. They even did a camera one time, and never got back to me after that. I looked at the video and couldn't tell anything. So the last time this happened, after paying them a few hundred to come out here twice in a week, I remembered that they said they had plumbers, and got a quote from them for going under the house, removing the plastic and insulation and finding what the problem was ( another $150 ). Then they showed me photos and said they found, and could fix it, for $2100. I thought it was a big job, but it turned out that one plumber came here for a total of 3 hours and did it, with probably $150 in materials. So it came to around $650 an hour for labor.

THEN I've been posting in another thread here, about needing a bunch of work done around this water heater. Removing the dead mixer valve and rerouting a little line to the humidifier, and the draft hood, and putting in an expansion tank. And we have a faucet in a bedroom where the plastic nuts broke and fell off and it's loose, so taking care of new nuts on that.

So I was looking for a plumber that did free estimates. Most want about $85 just to come out for a look! I found another rooter company, that sent a guy out 3 days ago, and he bid about $1000 for all the stuff we needed done. But the big clue was that little faucet. Instead of putting new nuts on it ( a 10 minute job? ) he says that nuts are hard to find, that fit these faucets, and he has to replace the whole faucet for $279!!! Now I paid around $45 for that faucet and had a handyman install it for around $30 a few years ago! So I'm thinking; HERE WE GO AGAIN! It's gonna be another fixed price job, and will likely take him an hour or two, and he wants around $1000!

Thus my frustration, that I never became a plumber years ago. Would have been a whole lot easier and cheaper than medical school, for example.

 

[Reach4]

Not sure what you're getting at. I'd rather not get sued for naming someone publicly.

I am referring to your blocking messaging.

Charging $85 to come out to take a look seems reasonable to me. If I were a plumber, I would not want to be one of 10 plumbers called out to give a free opinion or quote. But if I did give free quotes, I would want to charge a lot on the jobs I got, to make up for the time on the free trips.

Had you gone to medical school, would you come out and give a free quote on fixing the patient? You would charge them to look and tell them that they should contact a different doctor to do the work.

 

[Melissa2007B]

I am referring to your blocking messaging.

Charging $85 to come out to take a look seems reasonable to me. If I were a plumber, I would not want to be one of 10 plumbers called out to give a free opinion or quote. But if I did give free quotes, I would want to charge a lot on the jobs I got, to make up for the time on the free trips.

Had you gone to medical school, would you come out and give a free quote on fixing the patient? You would charge them to look and tell them that they should contact a different doctor to do the work.

Blocking message? Don't understand.

Anyway, I give free quotes all the time in my business, but it doesn't involve coming out. You have a point. But from our experience with plumbers around here, they charge $85 for the quote and THEN want so much that we cant afford it. We're frustrated here.

Are all plumbers unionized?

 

[Dana]

Someone indeed DID take out the original draft hood (or neglected to install the draft hood that was shipped with the water heater) even if it was done at the time it was originally installed.

Got a model number for the water heater? The draft hood's part number is probably listed in the documentation, and the draft hood would appear in the installation instructions.

The crud running down the vent pipe is probably the dried up chemistry of whatever happens when the exhaust acids react with the vent metals.

Email the prospective repair persons, and attach the picture. Ask them for a budgetary quote for installing the proper draft hood and properly installing the venting connections. The vent pipe itself may or may not need to be replaced right away, depending on how much damage has been incurred by the condensing exhaust. If the whole stack doesn't need to be replaced, installing a draft hood and hooking it to the stack is an hour or two, tops, and any reasonably competent DIYer or handyman could do it.

If the stack is too far gone and needs to be replaced entirely (possible, maybe even likely if it's been condensing in the stack since 2004), it will be more. With pictures and description they should be able to give you an upper bound on the budgetary quote if you tell them how long the whole stack is, the type of roofing, a picture of the top cap to the exhaust stack, etc.

Picture by Terry Love

 

[Melissa2007B]

The house was factory built and shipped here, Dana. Whoever replaced the water heater in 2013, just worked with that. We cant even find out now, who it was. But isn't that space between the top pipe and the lower one, the equivalent of a draft hood? Just not funnel shaped?

It's hard for me to get across to people, that I'm a senior and am still working part time, just so we don't have to live in a wood shack and eat dog food on Social "Security". We cant afford much, but for some reason everyone thinks we can. I asked that first plumber to give us a break because I'm a senior, and we got $2100 for a 3 hour job. We cant DO THAT. Unlike the government, I have to balance a budget and not incur more debt than we can handle, and we're at that limit now.

We could probably put as much money into the plumbing here, as we could ever make, but don't have it.

 

[FullySprinklered]

Try to determine if the space between the upper pipe and the lower pipe draws air. A smoldering broomstraw or cheap cigar should tell you something. It should be drawing air all the time since there is a pilot light going down at the burner 24/7.

If the Hava-Tampa smoke doesn't go up the pipe, take a hammer and a sharp tool and punch some holes in the pipe just above that beautifully improvised connector down at the top of the water heater and call it a day. Retest with a Swisher-Sweet. Then send me a check for 5,000 dollars.

 

[Phog]

I can't tell for sure from the pictures what type of vent pipe that is, but it looks like it might be 4" type-B double walled (many people call this "B-vent"). I suspect that what may appear at first glance to be a DIY draft hood is actually the space between the inner and outer walls of the B-vent. This is not a pathway for air to draft into the combustion stack, the inner chimney is completely sealed from double wall (by design).

If B-vent is indeed what you have, and as it appears the inner vent is continuous and has no ability to draft from the room, i agree with Dana that excess condensate may possibly be forming in the vent stack, due to the lack of draft hood. And that this condensate might be making its way down through the unit somehow to drip out from the drain area. A coincidence that makes it appear as though your drain valve is leaking.

Just a theory of course, but one that you can prove or disprove if you are willing to turn the unit off for awhile. This would stop combustion, removing the source of the condensate. If you do this and the drip stops, you've identified the source of the issue as condensate coming from the vent stack. On the other hand, if the drip keeps going strong even with the flame out, you've now definitely proven that it's the drain valve.

Of course the downside is that you would have to be without hot water while you're doing this test. And I don't know the proper duration for such a test either -- how long it would take to clear out all the drips after the flame goes out. If this were my own house i would start with overnight. Turn off unit the evening before, check for the drip in the morning, then restart.

Just a suggestion for something you could try. You don't want to go messing with the drain valve if it's not really the problem.

 

[Dana]

The house was factory built and shipped here, Dana. Whoever replaced the water heater in 2013, just worked with that. We cant even find out now, who it was. But isn't that space between the top pipe and the lower one, the equivalent of a draft hood? Just not funnel shaped?

It's hard for me to get across to people, that I'm a senior and am still working part time, just so we don't have to live in a wood shack and eat dog food on Social "Security". We cant afford much, but for some reason everyone thinks we can. I asked that first plumber to give us a break because I'm a senior, and we got $2100 for a 3 hour job. We cant DO THAT. Unlike the government, I have to balance a budget and not incur more debt than we can handle, and we're at that limit now.

We could probably put as much money into the plumbing here, as we could ever make, but don't have it.

I'm not the one quoting you the high prices, and don't really care who installed it that way. I'm just telling you that as-installed it's not even close to meeting the manufacturer's recommendations, and if it fails tomorrow nothing would be under warranty, despite the fact that it was only installed in 2013 (per your other thread. )

With enough pictures you can get people to give budgetary quotes, and even a full vent replacement is likely to come in well under some of those numbers in any kind of competitive marketplace. But the solution to the drips is a proper draft hood, not better sealant. If the vent is corroded through looking like rusty-crusty swiss cheese, if they want more than a few hundred to replace it, it's probably better to abandon it, get rid of the gas burner, and install an electric tank.

Installing a draft hood is not tough DIY job/handyman job, and it doesn't take a PhD. A handyman probably wouldn't nick you more than a hundred (or two, tops). But the installation as-is will all but certainly shorten the life of the water heater & vent stack. (I'd be a bit surprised the vent hasn't failed yet, given the amount acidic condensate running down the stack. It's probably doing a number on the heat exchanger inside the water heater too.)

Yarding out the whole mess and replacing it with an electric water heater (abandoning the vent, stubbing off the gas supplies) shouldn't be much more than about a grand, if it comes to that. Yes a grand is a lot of money, this unit has been mis-installed in a manner that results in the drip-drip of acidic natural gas condensate down the flue and into the center flue heat exchanger (or even dripping on the burner during the coldest weather.) Installing a proper draft hood should be a lot less than than (and quick). I'm surprised the first one lasted 9 years, but if you install a draft hood the current unit should go a bit longer than the original (or it could fail tomorrow.) But when it eventually fails, an electric water heater has fewer installation and maintenance issues to screw up. Don't spend a lot of money fixing this thing- save up for the replacement.

Picture added by Terry Love

 

[Dj2]

Melissa2007B,

Next time get multiple bids, if you're struggling financially or feel being taken advantage of, but Dana is just trying to tell you that your vent is not to code.
I know it's not your fault, but it has to be brought up to code for safe venting. The code is here for a reason.

That's all.

 

[Melissa2007B]

Actually dj2, we have new info on this, in my thread at https://terrylove.com/forums/index....ing-into-complete-replacement-no.75341/page-2

New info! I found a good local plumbing company with almost 400 good reviews on Google, which is EXTREMELY rare. Their tech came over and did a free estimate and gave me a bid of $913 for all the work, which included replacing the plastic drain faucet with a brass drain faucet, replacing that T that was going to the mixer with a cold water shut off valve for the water heater, removing the mixer, and a draft hood and expansion tank.

So the actual plumber came over to do the work today, and looked at the water heater and said that there's a reason that there was no draft hood. It turns out that this is a mobile/modular home water heater, which is smaller, to fit the cabinet space and has less BTU's, and it has a intake vent at the bottom of it. Ahah!

He also said an expansion tank is not a necessity, and redid our bid for the rest of the work, down to $360 now. He's out there doing it as I type this.

Interesting.

Glad I didn't try to replace that plastic drain valve myself. It broke off and he knew how to get it out and get it done.
.
.
and what appears to be that crack, between the water heater and the pipe: He shoved a screw driver in there and showed me it was metal, so they apparently have the pipe coming up from the water heater, into that vent pipe.