What is causing air bubbles in supply line

[Charrie]

Hi, I just installed 2 whole house filters, one before the water softener and one after. They have a clear sump and I noticed when I turned the water back on, the first filter fed from the supply line had quite a bit of air bubbles in it and then it stopped after running the water about a minute or two. If I cut the main valve off and wait 10 minutes or so and then turn it back on, I get the air bubbles again.
I ran the sink, flushed both toilets, and turned on both bathroom sinks all at the same time and I saw the bubbles coming in the filter and then they stopped. Again turning off the main supply and back on in 10 minutes or so, I get the bubbles again. It is a good little surge of air bubbles.

I shut off the main at the house and went up to the well. The pump was not running and the gauge was showing 40PSI. Mine is set to 30/50 PSI.
I tapped on the gauge and it might have moved about a pound. I stayed at the well and fooled around for about an hour and then checked the pressure gauge again. once again tapping it and it was still at 40 PSI and the pump had never come on.
Thinking, what if the gauge is bad I cracked the hose bib to see if there was a suction but it had pressure on it.

My well is about 330 feet from the house. The house may be slightly higher then the well house. From the well the land goes downhill about 20 to 25 feet over a length of about 180 feet and then starts back up hill to the house for another 150 feet.
The pump is a 1/2hp 240v and the drop pipe as well as the supply to the house is all 3/4". Poly drop pipe and PVC from the well to the house.
At the well head the water feeds directly into the 2 year old pressure tank, then into a sediment filter, and then to the house and into the first filter on the right.
I had the water turned off at the house for about 8 hours while I did the plumbing and allowed 2 hours for the glue to cure. i did not check the pressures then because I didn't know I would have this issue.

What should I check for next?

-

Thanks
Charrie

 

[Valveman]

Can't see, but if there is a check valve before that tank, remove it. Sounds like you have a leak in the well pipe, and a check valve anywhere other than the one on the pump can cause air to get in from the leak. Removing the check valve will let you know if pressure is dropping even when no water is being used.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Bannerman]

I shut off the main at the house and went up to the well. The pump was not running and the gauge was showing 40PSI. Mine is set to 30/50 PSI.
I tapped on the gauge and it might have moved about a pound. I stayed at the well and fooled around for about an hour and then checked the pressure gauge again. once again tapping it and it was still at 40 PSI and the pump had never come on.

Your pressure switch is designed and calibrated to activate the pump once water pressure has fallen to 30 psi, and to shut off the pump once pressure has risen to 50 psi.

The fact that the pressure remained at 40 psi indicates some water had been consumed from the pressure tank after the pump had shut off @ 50 psi, but the amount of consumption was not sufficient enough to cause the pressure to fall to 30 psi to cause the pressure switch to reactivate the pump again.

 

[2stupid2fixit]

Installing filters is a way to cause back pressure that you previously did not have before installing the filters, and new back pressure is a fantastic way to find out that your pitless gasket is no longer maintaining a good seal. Bad pitless gasket or o-ring means that when the pump is idle, air finds its way in since many pitless connections are not submerged. The o-ring or neoprene or leather gasket is typically under $15. The labor cost to change it out can vary depending whatever your local market price is for that. An easy way to find out if your pitless gasket leaks is actually simple. Take off your well cap. Make the pump run with all valves closed, preferrably close a valve that is the INPUT to your expansion tank. While the pump is running, look down the well casing. If you see or hear water spraying, your pitless connection needs service. There are YouTube videos that explain how to pull up the pump and change the gasket. I don't recommend trying this yourself until you have watched a pro do it in front of your very eyes in real life. Should something go wrong and you end up losing that runaway pump down that hole, the $15 dollar job immediately costs many thousands, and sometimes means new well drilled and installed depending on the circumstances.

 

[2stupid2fixit]

also your photos may be tricking me, but it looks like you used RainOrShine pvc cement, am I right? You could have a one way leak in your pvc. That means its perfectly good at holding in all the water but not good at holding vacuum and keeping air out.
Beause a pipe isnt leaking water doesnt mean its not allowing air in. Sounds crazy but it happens every day.

Lastly- observing some air bubbles in a see thru filter chamber is not necessarily a problem worth fixing. Are the few air bubbles you see disruptive? Does your toilet sputter and bang when filling due to air being expelled? Does a lavatory sink spurt air?

I guess what I am asking is, what is the real symptom? Is the symptom any more than the fact you can see air trapped in one of the filters in plain view? I have used GE Smartwater whole house filters on my well setup and I was never able to get those things to work 100%. They either leaked air or water or allowed a one micron piece of sediment to clog the whole operation. My well passed a pathogen (e coli, pseudomonas areugnosas, shigella, lysteria, cryptosporidium, e-enterus i forget the rest) test and it passed a heavy metals test, and some more expensive test for arsenic and other things and it all came back better than store bought bottled water.

So with that peace of mind, if I have anything in the water that I am unfamiliar with, I just chew it up like anything else.

 

[Charrie]

Thanks for the replies guys. I had worked on the plumbing all day yesterday and so today after experimenting a bit more, i think I may have come up with a different reason for air bubbles in the supply line filter housing when the main water valve is turned back on. I want to see what you guys think.

Before I started cutting pipes loose from the system without the filters, I drained the water using the drain valve on the lower right supply line. When I cut the pipe on the left, I blew some air through the line which forced a bit more water out the drain. This also forced some water out of the softener tank. After I finished installing the filter housings and turned the water on, the housings were full of air. the air in the housing on the right went into the softener tank while the filter on the left went into the house lines and water heater. Most of the time today when I ran water I could hear bubbling in the softener tank.

What I am thinking is that when I turn the main supply valve off, the filters are higher then the softener tank and air is rising up from the softener tank and into the top of the filter housing. When I turn the water back on, the air is being forced out of the filter head and into the sump where i can see it. If I have not used water for several hours and turn the kitchen faucet on (I can see the filters from there), I do not see any more air bubbles coming in the the main filter. The only time today that I have been able to get air bubble in the filter is if I turn the main valve off and drain the pressure, wait a while, and open the valve back.
The only main cut off valve I have in the house right now is the "electric flood stop valve" you can see on the lower right supply line and is before any of the equipment. There are ball valves on the left side for a bypass, If I turn them both off and drain the pressure from the house lines, wait a bit and turn them back on, there are no air bubbles. The difference is that using the main cut off valve and draining the pressure releaves all the pressure from the filters and softener tank while turning the other two valves off does not.
Does that make sense?

Valveman , As far as I know, the only check valve is the one on the pump itself. The GE whole house filters did have a check valve of sorts built into them but I removed them. There are a couple of threads here in the forum about doing that on the GE filters.

Bannerman , I probably used a little water before deciding to run up to the well and check it. I should have ran some water at the well and cut it off when the pump kicked on so i would have had 50psi while watching. I will check that out tomorrow.

2stupid2fixit , I do not have a pitless so cant even take the cap off to look down in the well right not. I am going to have to raise the a few inches in order to sanitize the well and am worried about what if the pump dropped. Since moving here i have watched many many videos on well repairs and how wells work as well as reading on this forum so i could understand my system since this is my first well experience.
You are correct about the Rain or Shine glue. But not all of them are. Originally there was a peroxide injection system and the softener in that room and the original installer used the R and S glue. I started using it and did not like how thick and messy it was and swapped to the standard clear Oatey glue. The R and S glue tended to push the excess glue up into the fittings. I did use primer and glue on both fittings and you can clearly see my primer mess!
Interesting about the R and S glue. The guys who worked on the well also used the R and S glue. I guess that is why I started off with it.
As to banging or sputtering, I have noticed it just a little when filling the kitchen sink and a few burps here and there are not a problem for me.
I have only had the basic test done so far and negative for E-coli and coliform but a little high in iron and manganese. Too high in manganese to drink. I am working on that. That is why the filters. The iron and manganese is dissolved in the water and i will be adding a peroxide injection pump up at the well which is supposed to convert both so I can filter them out. After all the work is done then I will chlorinate the well an have a more extensive test done.

You are correct about the filters restricting the flow. It is interesting that these filters have a 1" inlet and outlet threads while the center piece I cut out is less then 7/8" in diameter and slotted. I think removing it had to increase the flow some.

Filters before removing the rubber check valve. It is just a little flat rubber piece and you can see its little tab sticking through in the center.

-
After using a hole saw

-
and here is the check valve

 

[Charrie]

As far as I can tell, at the moment there are no more air bubbles in either filter when running water in the house. The kitchen faucet has burped a couple of times when running hot water. I tend to think it had to be air in the softener tank but will keep an eye on the pump and drop pipe as I have to shock the well very soon.
Thanks
Charrie