Wet Bar Outlets

[Speedy Petey]

I disagree, why would you need a Fridge GFCI protected never would do that and AFCI in a kitchen every time the motor on any appliance is going to spark and that would trip the AFCI.

You can disagree all you want, code is code.
So you are assuming any appliance will trip an AFCI "every time"?

And you would "never" put a fridge on GFI??? What other codes do you ignore?
In a garage, or within 6' of a wet bar sink, YES, a fridge receptacle would need GFI protection. Period.

 

[Al G.]

Thanks for all the responses. I didn't know what I thought was a simple question would generate so much discussion. I think I'll ask my local inspector what he requires when I go for the permit.

And yes, it is a finished basement.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Homeownerinburb]

the fact that its a basement should be mute.

The word you are looking for is "moot", not "mute".

 

[Homeownerinburb]

In a garage, or within 6' of a wet bar sink, YES, a fridge receptacle would need GFI protection. Period.

Have you got a citation on that? The least I saw, if the receptacle is behind the fridge, is need not be gfi protected.

 

[Homeownerinburb]

You can disagree all you want, code is code.
So you are assuming any appliance will trip an AFCI "every time"?

And you would "never" put a fridge on GFI??? What other codes do you ignore?
In a garage, or within 6' of a wet bar sink, YES, a fridge receptacle would need GFI protection. Period.

I finally got across town to the nearest building and safety office for LA this morning. You are right and you are wrong.

The guy I spoke to acknowledged that any outlet within 6' of a sink, including under a counter or behind a fridge, is SUPPOSED to be gfi protected.

And he said that if I were to make a cogent argument to my inspector (his colleagues) that a receptacle is behind a fridge and is not going to be accessed for counter top appliances, and thus should be ignored, that the inspector will shrug and agree.

I'll certainly go to the trouble of putting in a single outlet, not a duplex, behind the fridge, to nudge the inspector to see it my way.

GFI for the garbage disposal? He wants for me to put it in.

As for ArcFault for kitchens and bathroom outlets, he also acknowledges that the code is going there. But he told me to limit it to the bed rooms and living room.

I predict a hazy period and expect to visit the offices EVERY TIME I work up a bid, to assure that I am not going to be forced to install something expensive that I have not included in the bid.

 

[JWelectric]

A couple of things to keep in mind when doing electrical installations are that questions asked to an inspector in no way guarantees that you are going to make a code compliant installation. The only way to make a code compliant installation is to adhere to the rules adopted in your area. An inspector might say one thing but enforce another,

If I had an appliance that I was afraid to have on either an arc fault or ground fault it would be time to get rid of the appliance. Should the GFCI in my basement trip and defrost the meat contained within I would praise God that it was the meat that was lost and not a human life.

The requirement that a GFCI device to be readily accessible is more than enough to allow anyone to see if the device has tripped. The dedicated circuit or an appliance in front of the receptacle negates the requirement for GFCI went out a couple of code cycles ago.

If you are afraid to plug your freezer into a GFCI protected receptacle the simple solution is to just not have a freezer,

 

[Homeownerinburb]

If you are afraid to plug your freezer into a GFCI protected receptacle the simple solution is to just not have a freezer,

Might we avoid being simplistic about it? This is not MY freezer. It is not even a freezer we are discussing.

This is the property of the CLIENT. The installation is for the benefit of the CLIENT, not me. It is not MY food that will be spoiled if the gfi trips. It is not even MY fridge that will be made useless by housing rotting food for weeks on end. You cannot get that stench out.

All that happens to the CLIENT. Not to ME.

So, no, I am not afraid to plug in "MY" freezer, because, see, it is not "MY" freezer.

I am, however, interested in giving my client good service. It is my judgement that it is STUPID to plug a fridge or freezer into a gfi receptacle. I will take it up with my local code board, although they only have authority over 110 thousand people.

And JW, let me save you the effort: you are going to lecture me as how it is best service to do EVERYTHING to code.

Everybody is entitled to an opinion, I suppose.

But as long as the inspector is going to let me plug the fridge into other than a gfi or arcfault circuit, I'm doing it. Nobody is going to plug a toaster into that receptacle and then drop it into the sink.

And how, pray tell, does a dedicated circuit negate the requirement that the gfi be visible? It could be a breaker in the box.

One other question: how am I to be sure that I am in compliance with the jurisdiction's rules if I do not ask the inspectors when I am in doubt?

Los Angeles County has 80 cities. The County regulates code in unincorporated areas in the county. Each of those cities has its own enforcement. That is 81 authorities that I might need to understand. And each expects me to buy a business license to do business there.

Oddly, the City of Los Agneles gives the business license away for free, under 300,000 gross receipts. The smaller cities that I tend to work in want about $100 each per year.

 

[Jadnashua]

While many people here may understand what a GFCI does, just for clarity and maybe education of those that don't:

A GFCI compares the power going out verses the power going back on the neutral lead. When everything is working properly, those two currents are the same. The current doesn't magically dissipate inside of the appliance, it needs a path, or it's just like an open switch...nothing happens.

The safety issue becomes, what if some of that current does NOT go back to the source (they call it a closed circuit for a reason) - that means that some of it is going along a different path. At some point, the neutral and grounds are tied together. So, to get back along the neutral to the source, the alternate path is typically through ground. If a person happens to be in series with that stray current, he may be harmed. It doesn't take much...we're talking maybe as little as 10's of milliamps (thousandth's of an amp) and the person's heart may be disrupted. So, the GFCI measures the current, and looks for a difference between what was going in verses what's going out. IF they are not the same, within it's preset threshold (I think that is in the area of 5-6ma), it trips, removing power from the affected device - IOW, it shuts down, before there's enough or a long enough amount of current 'straying' to ground to hurt someone, at least enough to kill them.

Modern products are required to not have stray currents to ground. If they eventually do develop that problem, they should either be repaired or replaced. A funeral or hospital stay is lots more expensive than whatever may spoil in a freezer.

 

[Speedy Petey]

I finally got across town to the nearest building and safety office for LA this morning. You are right and you are wrong.

The guy I spoke to acknowledged that any outlet within 6' of a sink, including under a counter or behind a fridge, is SUPPOSED to be gfi protected.

And he said that if I were to make a cogent argument to my inspector (his colleagues) that a receptacle is behind a fridge and is not going to be accessed for counter top appliances, and thus should be ignored, that the inspector will shrug and agree.

So how am I wrong? If your inspector will let it go that does not change the code requirement.

GFI for the garbage disposal? He wants for me to put it in.

What's funny is that in a kitchen it's not required, but at a wet bar sink it would be. Kitchens do not have the 6' rule, only a counter top rule.

I have not bothered myself to read up on the '14 NEC changes. All this new AFCI bullsh*t annoys me and I don't want to deal with it until I am forced to.

 

[Homeownerinburb]

So how am I wrong? If your inspector will let it go that does not change the code requirement.


What's funny is that in a kitchen it's not required, but at a wet bar sink it would be. Kitchens do not have the 6' rule, only a counter top rule.

I have not bothered myself to read up on the '14 NEC changes. All this new AFCI bullsh*t annoys me and I don't want to deal with it until I am forced to.

OK, so you are not wrong. Lucky me my building department is not going to bust my chops about the fridge. And I think they would let the wine chiller slide as well, although wine is not as vulnerable to a chiller going out as food in a fridge is.

I absolutely agree with you about the arcfaults. I can readily see a situation in the near term where for all practical purposes, a repanel will cause a full rewire. Customers are going to just love that.

 

[JWelectric]

So, no, I am not afraid to plug in "MY" freezer, because, see, it is not "MY" freezer.

But you are afraid to plug someone else freezer into a GFCI.

I am, however, interested in giving my client good service. It is my judgement that it is STUPID to plug a fridge or freezer into a gfi receptacle. I will take it up with my local code board, although they only have authority over 110 thousand people.

Let me see if I understand this, you are saying that you have no problem in making your freezer safe for you and your family but it would not be good service to do the same for someone who you are taking money from.

One other question: how am I to be sure that I am in compliance with the jurisdiction's rules if I do not ask the inspectors when I am in doubt?

Maybe a little studying of the code

 

[Houptee]

NEC Adoption by state Map
http://www.nema.org/Technical/FieldReps/Pages/National-Electrical-Code.aspx

 

[Houptee]

AFCI Code requirements 2011 and 2014 with nice diagrams
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/Sect...ED35E7B9632A29F184980A64F95EA6D17694F5C7315A6

 

[Reach4]

You can disagree all you want, code is code.
So you are assuming any appliance will trip an AFCI "every time"?

And you would "never" put a fridge on GFI??? What other codes do you ignore?
In a garage, or within 6' of a wet bar sink, YES, a fridge receptacle would need GFI protection. Period.

Would you put a basement sump pump on a GFI?

 

[Homeownerinburb]

But you are afraid to plug someone else freezer into a GFCI.

Let me see if I understand this, you are saying that you have no problem in making your freezer safe for you and your family but it would not be good service to do the same for someone who you are taking money from.

Maybe a little studying of the code

Let me see if I have THIS straight? You want to insultingly put words in my mouth?

I ask again: how am I to know if my locality, of which I have about a dozen that I do business in, has adopted one part of the code or another without going and asking the inspector?

Try answering the questions asked, not insulting strawman questions that will help you make your point.

 

[Al G.]

I asked my inspector what he wants to see. He said the wine cooler under the counter does not require GFI protection since the receptacle will not be accessible. He said the same thing about the microwave that's going in a wall cabinet. He said that meets the current code in my jurisdiction. Neither of them have to be on dedicated circuits. I'll probably put the microwave on its own circuit just due to the load.

 

[Homeownerinburb]

I asked my inspector what he wants to see. He said the wine cooler under the counter does not require GFI protection since the receptacle will not be accessible. He said the same thing about the microwave that's going in a wall cabinet. He said that meets the current code in my jurisdiction. Neither of them have to be on dedicated circuits. I'll probably put the microwave on its own circuit just due to the load.

Good to know. If it is not a lot of cost or work, it is well worth it to give the microwave its own circuit. Full sized ones can easily pull 15 amps at full whack.

 

[Speedy Petey]

Would you put a basement sump pump on a GFI?

If code required it, absolutely. In fact in my own home it is that way.

 

[Vegas_sparky]

I asked my inspector what he wants to see. He said the wine cooler under the counter does not require GFI protection since the receptacle will not be accessible. He said the same thing about the microwave that's going in a wall cabinet. He said that meets the current code in my jurisdiction. Neither of them have to be on dedicated circuits. I'll probably put the microwave on its own circuit just due to the load.

I would put the micro on a dedicated circuit. I'd also install GFI recepticles for the wine cooler and microwave because they are so close to the sink. I wonder what your inspector is thinking?

Today's GFI technology is very reliable. I'd rather reset a GFI and replace a defective appliance, than experience that disturbing tingling feeling while rinsing out a glass, and opening the fridge.

 

[Homeownerinburb]

As opposed to modern refrigerators and microwaves that regularly leak current?

Just ribbing you.