Wells in karst cannot be disinfected, it seems

[Dorrough]

Just an update in case anyone else runs into the same issue. We have a 400 ft + well and it's drilled into karst topology - that means caves. There are lots of caves where we live, and lots of underground hydrology (water) running in underground channels.

After a serious slog of research, I believe that it is just not possible to disinfect a well such as this. Here's why:

1. The water underground can be running at such a high flow rate that any bleach or disinfectant you pour in will be carried away before it can be recirculated. Think of pouring bleach into a river, and then trying to dip clean water out.

2. People used to think that by the time water percolated through all the layers of soil, porous rock and sand all the bacteria would be filtered out. If it was an unbroken layer of material, that would be true. But in karst geology, there are fractures, there are sinkholes that can plunge hundreds of feet. Any one of these channels can carry dirty water into a well.

3. Even if a cave well tests clean, you can't trust that result. It just means for that moment in time your water was clean. Karst is full of channels that might be dry for months at a time or even years at a time, and then come a heavy rain or local flood and water runs through the channel again. Washing accumulated dirt, bat guano, dead crickets, you name it into the water supply. Unsuspecting you drinks it. surprise! Hope you bought one of those Toto toilets that Terry is so sweet on (I did, by the way. See, I have learned something from lurking around here!)

So the bottom line seems to be that if you have a well that connects to a cave system, you have to get some kind of disinfecting system no matter what. I guess that means UV for me. Anybody got any particular brands to recommend or avoid?

 

[NHmaster]

Informative post, thanks. There are a bunch of UV filters on the market. One seems as good as the other. Get what you can find locally with future service and availability of parts in mind.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Gary Slusser]

There are big differences in UV lights and there are two classes. People that don't know and understand those differences should not be advising someone about water treatment that is used to protect against health concerns.

And any DIYer with the desire can install and service their own UV. I have sold hundreds of UVs and have always instructed my customers how to maintain them and about 6-7 out of 10 did.

To use UV there are a number of raw water quality requirements that must be met first; like the maximum hardness, iron, manganese, H2S etc. content.

UV comes in many sizes with multiple features and all are sized based on the max gpm flow rate used in the household, just like sizing a softener. All UV lights are flow controlled.

 

[Dorrough]

Well, sell me one

I wish we'd got the softener from you instead of the fly-by-night outfit that we used. Reckon we can take this off line, but we do need one. Right now we're filtering water we bring from out of town through a countertop drip filter.

Water is very hard, 80+ grains, and it goes through a softener. Because the water is so hard, the softened water tastes bad: very salty. Would a RO filter at the sink generate enough drinking water? Would it waste so much water doing so that we fill up the septic tank? Render unto us your advice.

I suppose we could just do the RO filter for now and add the UV later just to spread out the expenses. We don't drink out of any of the taps, and I hope the bad taste of the water would keep anyone else from doing it!

 

[Dorrough]

Keeping it in the family

Don't want to cause any ruckus ...

Terry says it's OK for people to market their work here if it doesn't compete with his, I believe. It would be rather rude to take business from the person who is providing this excellent forum. So if it's non-competing, I'd just as soon keep things in the family. People on this board have helped me tremendously with advice, with sharing knowledge and experience, and have saved me time-trouble-money in doing so. That's why I say I'd rather do business with someone here, as opposed to someone I find from a Google search who has never done anything to help me, just because they are a bit cheaper.

We bought a water softener from someone online who went out of business shortly thereafter. They sold us a unit that was really too small for what we needed, although it was THEORETICALLY the capacity they claimed. No programming information, no phone or email assistance, nothing. Was that really a savings?

To all the DIY-ers out there: don't underestimate the value of good advice. Read these forums regularly, and you'll learn a lot. If you then need to go out and obtain something locally, at least you'll have a good idea of what to look for. But if you're going to purchase online, why not consider purchasing from someone who has already spent time and energy helping educate you? That's my perspective.

And yeah, it's cha-ching, but buying a cheap product that has to be replaced is NOT better than getting the right product the first time. Me, I dont' need the cadillac of anything, but I want decent quality. That's why I bought a Toto toilet (only one shop in my town even had them). Terry's write-ups convinced me that there was a difference in toilets. I could have bought a toilet at a big box store for half what I spent on that toilet. But at the same time, I bought a lower-end Toto (Drake) that was half what I could have spent for a top-end model. (Puns intended). To me, this is not extravagant: I didn't just go out and buy the best money could buy. I got the best I could afford. I could have spent the same money, or even more, at the big box store and got an inferior product.

I bet this pattern holds for almost everything. I bet there's a UV sterilizer that may cost more than the one at Low Price Depot, but less than the one Bill Gates has in his house that will be reliable, maintainable and effective. I want to find it. Same for a reverse-osmosis filter: where's the sweet spot? The best thing about this forum is when I get too complicated about things, someone will step in and point out that I DON'T need all the things I think I need and show me how to solve my problem for less. I really appreciate that! That's just good-hearted, help-your-neighbor attitude, and that kind of attitude deserves to be recognized. If someone here has helped, you can return the favor by supporting their business.

Oooh, long post. Maybe I should wait until the coffee has settled out before I read email!

 

[Gary Slusser]

It greatly muddies the whole thread though when someone recommends product X and then another guy comes in and say's product X is crap, buy my product Y instead. Again, I come at this from an entirely different angle. I am not interested is selling anyone anything.

There are plenty of examples all over this forum of the X v Y battle. I don't think this is the place for it.

I haven't seen anyone say a product is crap, junk, worthless or otherwise bad.

There is little difference between someone selling a product's features or someone selling their anti selling products ideas of how things should be except...

The compliant posts like those in this thread "muddies up the whole thread" with nothing that can be remotely considered as useful information.

I don't see discussion of products as a war. I see it as an opportunity for members, DIYers or not, to learn the different points of view of the sellers, based on the features, advantages, disadvantages, etc. of the product.

IMO that is a good thing for members and exactly what Terry's forums were created to provide.

And that is exactly what the OP that started this thread is looking for.

If I could, I would move this thread into the forum named; Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and reviews forum that Terry created specifically for REVIEWS of water softeners (and other water treatment equipment).

 

[Dorrough]

Good idea

The whole thread kind of got off track. My fault, I should have left it at the well-disinfecting and moved the UV question to the other forum. I'll go ahead and move over there. I don't know if one of the bowdlerizers can cut the thread in two and delete all the comments that don't have to do with cave water undisinfectability?

 

[Gary Slusser]

No no, you have done absolutely nothing wrong regardless of where you posted.

Moderators are supposed to straighten things out if needed (and moving this thread is not needed) and it only takes less than 30 seconds.

What is going on in this thread and many others, has nothing to do with anything you did or said.

This disruption stuff is on those attempting to run Terry's forum the way they want it to run so they can accomplish their agenda, which is to stop DIYers and then me from posting or at least as they call it, "selling" products. I only 'sell' something, other than my ideas here, when someone calls me. And then I say they "buy" from me.

There is no need for you to move the thread. Actually you can't move a thread, a moderator or admin has to do it. And your disinfect my well thread is 'Closed' so it can be used as a FYI Sticky for others and no one can post in it.

So post away in this thread, or start another thread on another subject here or in the other forum; your choice.

 

[Dorrough]

Can we have a do-over?

This forum is too valuable a resource to lose to hurt feelings. I bet that for every one who posts a question, there are at least ten, if not a hundred, people who come and get the answers they need. As a result, people are doing things with their own hands, making their own mistakes, and learning skills they never thought they'd master. That is a good and valuable thing. You should all be proud of that: that you're the "wise elders" (or wise-ass elders) of a community, something that is very altruistic at heart. Everyone here who posts an answer to a question is a teacher, giving generously of their time. Please keep it up! Don't leave us to wander alone in the bardo of the Homeless Low Depot!

Of course the student should pay attention when the teachers disagree, and even when they don't, the student should Use Own Brain to decide how to proceed. Souls of gentility who quit posting, don't be intimidated by cantankerous old coots. Cantankerous old (and young) coots, tone it down.

But then I grew up in the south, where the cantankerous old coot is a beloved fixture in town, and very likely to have a well-attended funeral. I plan to be one myself some day.

 

[Gary Slusser]

There is no "agenda" from anyone here except you.

Maybe you don't remember your anti DIYer "Ok, I've had enough" https://terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30479 thread and your no one should be allowed to sell here "Is this an OK thing to do here (or anywhere)" thread.

Or your ranting PM to me last week threatening to get me banned if I didn't stop posting and where you call me an unlicensed hack and a know nothing.

I say that those three things and replies of yours over the last week, like this one that I am replying to, prove your agenda against me and the way Terry runs his forums.

 

[Gary Slusser]

Souls of gentility who quit posting, don't be intimidated by cantankerous old coots. Cantankerous old (and young) coots, tone it down.

Yes Mom, you are in a man's world now... do you think he's older'n me er just more cootafied? I'm thinkin' he's short and bald and doesn't much like reading plumbing code books to high schrool kids.

 

[Sjsmithjr]

Excuse me...

...but I was wondering if we could talk about diffuse flow, conduit flow, base flow conditions, high flow conditions, surface runoff, spring discharge, wellhead protection, surface casing depth and perhaps, just maybe, that in karst terrain you should avoid setting a well in a cave in the first place.

Anyone?

 

[Gary Slusser]

...but I was wondering if we could talk about diffuse flow, conduit flow, base flow conditions, high flow conditions, surface runoff, spring discharge, wellhead protection, surface casing depth and perhaps, just maybe, that in karst terrain you should avoid setting a well in a cave in the first place.

Anyone?

IMO it's a bit late now since the well is in and there's a water quality issue or two, and little to no money to do anything with the well with, but yes, absolutely, go for it.

I'm light on the diffuse flow and base flow conditions, so what are they? My guess of base flow... a minimal recovery rate under a set of variable conditions like worst case? Diffuse flow... two or more streams of recovery waters?

 

[NHmaster]

...but I was wondering if we could talk about diffuse flow, conduit flow, base flow conditions, high flow conditions, surface runoff, spring discharge, wellhead protection, surface casing depth and perhaps, just maybe, that in karst terrain you should avoid setting a well in a cave in the first place.

Anyone?

I believe it is illegal in this area to drill such a well. Even a true artesian flow has the possibility of being contaminated and carrying the contaminate directly into the aqua fir.

 

[Gary Slusser]

Never heard of anything like that but question... how would anyone know until the well was drilled? Do they just ban drilling residential water wells in certain areas? I've never heard of that before either unless there is a Super Fund site that has been mapped.

And IMO obviously it isn't illegal in the OP's area or they would have heard as much by now.