Well water woes… need advice

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DblDogDare

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AlI,
I need some advice on some plumbing issues I am having. Any/all advice is greatly appreciated.

Wy wife and I moved into our forever home about 2 months ago. The house was built in 2007. It uses a well (depth 150 feet, 12 gpm). Unfortunately, we recently had some water issues where for several days all of the faucets sounded like they were spitting and sputtering air. We had a plumber out who pulled and replaced the Goulds Bruiser well pump. I will assume this was the original well pump. The plumber said the old pump had plastic parts and that the new ones are all stainless steel and should last a lot longer. He replaced it with another Bruiser stainless pump.

Issue #1; The plumber did not shock the well. He indicated that shocking the well would be hard on the pump and that it would be fine in a couple of days. I didn’t quite understand this, but thought OK, I am not a plumber but would investigate. Everything I read on-line indicates it should have been shocked, especially if the drop pipe was left on the ground, which it was for about 45 minutes while the plumber went to the supply house to get the new pump.

The morning after the well pump was replaced, the water pressure was very low at the faucets while normal at the pressure tank gauge. I replaced the 5 micron filter where it was clogged with sediment. This solved the pressure issue. I am assuming that since the well was stirred up replacing the pump, this was likely normal.

Days prior to the pump issues, the Sterilight S12Q-PA UV light ballast started beeping. I unplugged the ballast until I could research this issue. I called the plumber about the spitting and sputtering faucets. I told him about the ballast beeping. He checked it out and determined that the ballast was bad and needed replacing. He did not however do anything more with the UV light. I researched and found that if after resetting the ballast, and still continuous beep, likely a bad ballast. I disassembled the UV light. I took the bulb, ballast and quartz sleeve to a plumbing supply house. After testing, we determined that my bulb was bad, and likely burnt out the ballast. I bought a new ballast, bulb and sleeve (old one was very dirty with rust). I reassembled and the UV light works now.

Question #1; Will the UV light now operating properly be sufficient to not have to shock the well? Is having a UV light enough to not require shocking a well?

Continuing saga… While at the pluming supply house (also a plumber) for the UV light issues, the plumber assisting me asked about my system. Fortunately, I had taken pictures.. However, he indicated that some things were not plumbed properly. I am not sure what was installed when the house was built, and added afterwards. This is the order of what is currently installed;

1. Water comes into the house and goes to a Baron BN 4202 (20 gal) pressure tank. (Plumber replacing the pump indicated that it should be upgraded to a larger tank when it needs replacing)
2. Water leaves the pressure tank and goes to a WHKF-DWH (2x10) 5 micron filter
3. Water leaves the 5 micron filter and goes to the Sterilight S12Q-PA UV light
4. Water leaves the UV light and goes to the Turbosoft IF1.5 Neutralizer (empty of calcite by flashlight test)
5. Water leaves the Neutralizer and goes to a Water Tender WTF480 Water Softener
6. Water leaves the Softener and goes to a unknown make and model (4x10) 25 micron filter
7. Water goes to the rest of the house

Issue #2; UV plumbing supply house plumber indicated that it should go to the 25 micron filter first, which makes sense to me as why would I filter smaller particles prior to filtering larger… He also stated the 5 micron should be prior to the UV light and that the light should be the last thing in line…


Question #2; If I need to have these filters re-plumbed, should I think about upgrading the pressure tank at the same time? Should I upgrade the neutralizer and softener at the same time, considering these are original when the house was built in 2007. Has water treatment technology advanced since 2007 that I should consider alternatives? If so, what do y’all recommend?

Sorry for the long post, and thank you for your thoughts
 

Reach4

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The morning after the well pump was replaced, the water pressure was very low at the faucets while normal at the pressure tank gauge. I replaced the 5 micron filter where it was clogged with sediment. This solved the pressure issue. I am assuming that since the well was stirred up replacing the pump, this was likely normal.
Yes.
Days prior to the pump issues, the Sterilight S12Q-PA UV light ballast started beeping. I unplugged the ballast until I could research this issue. I called the plumber about the spitting and sputtering faucets. I told him about the ballast beeping. He checked it out and determined that the ballast was bad and needed replacing. He did not however do anything more with the UV light. I researched and found that if after resetting the ballast, and still continuous beep, likely a bad ballast. I disassembled the UV light. I took the bulb, ballast and quartz sleeve to a plumbing supply house. After testing, we determined that my bulb was bad, and likely burnt out the ballast. I bought a new ballast, bulb and sleeve (old one was very dirty with rust). I reassembled and the UV light works now.
You certainly want the piping after the UV to be sanitized, presuming there is a good reason for your UV.

So your 5 micron filter plus UV kills stuff as it passes, but when the light was out, stuff that can grow passed... don't you think?

Issue #2; UV plumbing supply house plumber indicated that it should go to the 25 micron filter first, which makes sense to me as why would I filter smaller particles prior to filtering larger… He also stated the 5 micron should be prior to the UV light and that the light should be the last thing in line…
Yes. The 25 first helps the 5 micron filter from getting clogged as quickly.
Question #2; If I need to have these filters re-plumbed, should I think about upgrading the pressure tank at the same time? Should I upgrade the neutralizer and softener at the same time, considering these are original when the house was built in 2007. Has water treatment technology advanced since 2007 that I should consider alternatives? If so, what do y’all recommend?
How long does your pump run now as a minimum? If 1 minute or more, your tank is probably fine. Annually, you should flush your pressure tank, and check and adjust your precharge. If you don't find suggested methods for that, say so. I think you should have at least a 44 gallon tank if you have a 10 gpm pump, unless you use a CSV.

If you have a pitless adapter with a well cap, good well and plumbing sanitizing can be a good DIY thing. It takes time, and you you may not want to pay a plumber for the time it can take. https://terrylove.com/forums/index....izing-extra-attention-to-4-inch-casing.65845/ is my sanitizing writeup.

If a deep well is in good condition, I tend to think UV is probably not needed. It is easy to contaminate a coliform test sample, making people often get a false positive. You have the UV. It won't hurt anything if you don't need it, and it could hurt if you really do need it and don't have it. I am not a pro.
 

DblDogDare

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Thank you Reach4 for the response. Yes, I believe that without the UV light, some of the contaminants likely passed through while the light was inoperable. In timing my well pump with a single shower running, the pump runs about 23 seconds, and off for about 1.30 minutes, and cycles again around these numbers. The gauge needs to be replaced as it is a 200 psi (not sure why such a high psi...) When pump stops, pre-charge on the pressure tank is at 52psi. I appreciate the link to sanitizing the well, and have reviewed it. I do have concerns with the septic system, but I suppose if I flush most out to the road, and minimize the amount going to the septic system should be fine. I also have a tankless water heater, so it shouldn't hold much at all. I think that I need to get the plumbing components straightened out before sanitizing. In the meantime, using bottled water.
 

Reach4

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Some things to sanitize are best ordered in advance, such as a cheap pH meter.
Click Inbox, above.
 
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Bannerman

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with a single shower running, the pump runs about 23 seconds, and off for about 1.30 minutes, and cycles again around these numbers.
Your pressure tank is too small.

The pressure tank's purpose is to reduce the frequency of pump cycling. Pumps are designed to run non-stop and cycling is what is most damaging.

The appropriate tank size will allow the pump to run for 60-120 seconds from the pressure switch cut-in pressure to the cut-out pressure while no water is being utilized. Although pressure tanks are marketed by their total volume, approx 1/4 of the total volume will contain water and the remaining 3/4 will contain air when the cut-out pressure is achieved.

Regardless of the pressure tank size, if less water is consumed than the pump can deliver, cycling will continue to occur, but with a larger tank, the frequency will be less.

An option to eliminate pump cycling while also using a small pressure tank is to install a Cycle Stop Valve (CSV). This is a mechanical valve placed between your existing well pump and pressure tank which will control the flow from the pump to match the actual flow being consumed. As long as >1GPM is being used, the pump will continue to operate to deliver the precise amount of water needed at a consistent pressure.

Forum moderator 'Valveman" is the developer and manufacturer of CSV products. https://cyclestopvalves.com/
 
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DblDogDare

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Ordered and received the WX-250 pressure tank and tank tee kit (gauge, relief valve, pressure switch, etc.) Contemplating the CSV, or to wait and see what kind of cycle times I get with the new tank. Thinking this will be my order of components;

1.) Pressure Tank
2.) 25 Micron Filter
3.) Neutralilzer
4.) Softener
5.) 5 Micron Filter
6.) UV Light
7.) Water Heater

Any thoughts on this order, or opinions on changing this up?
 

Bannerman

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With 30/50 pressure switch settings, the WX-250 will provide 13.6 gallons drawdown. If your pump is delivering 13.6 gallons/minute, then the pump will need to run 60-seconds to raise pressure from 30 to 50 psi. If your pump is delivering less flow such as 10 GPM, then it will need to run 1.36 minutes before it is shut down at 50 psi. If filling the tank at 7 GPM, then 1.94 minutes run time.

I suggested CSV previously as that provided an option to not upsize your pressure tank. For most residential applications, a 4.4 gallon tank which will hold only 1.1 gallons water will be sufficient as the valve will limit the tank fill rate to 1GPM to provide the necessary minimum pump run time. As you already own a 20 gallon tank, that could have continued to be used even as it is larger than actually needed.
 
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Reach4

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Any thoughts on this order, or opinions on changing this up?
Order looks good to me.

1.5 is shutoff valve.

Have a spare o-ring on hand before opening a housing to change a cartridge. Otherwise, a failed o-ring could leave you without water. 3-valve bypasses are good too, in case an o-ring does not fix it.

Consider putting some boiler drain valves between stages for sampling, and mounting garden hose pressure gauges. Pressure drop is a good indicator of when a cartridge needs changing.

I think positive coliform tests from deep wells are most often due to not using proper sampling procedures. If you sanitize your well and plumbing, the UV may not be needed. https://terrylove.com/forums/index....izing-extra-attention-to-4-inch-casing.65845/ is my sanitizing writeup.
 

LLigetfa

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With 30/50 pressure switch settings, the WX-250 will provide 13.6 gallons drawdown. If your pump is delivering 13.6 gallons/minute, then the pump will need to run 60-seconds to raise pressure from 30 to 50 psi. If your pump is delivering less flow such as 10 GPM, then it will need to run 1.36 minutes before it is shut down at 50 psi. If filling at 7 GPM, then 1.94 minutes run time.
Simplified formula but then the long form math might be TMI.

Some factors:
Pumps run on a curve so GPM can vary by pressure.
Water table drawdown will also affect the curve.
Water use during tank refill will extend runtime.
 

Valveman

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You went from a 20 gallon tank that holds 5 gallons of water to a 44 gallon tank that holds 10 gallons of water. With the 20 gallon tank your pump was cycling 23 seconds on and a minute 30 seconds off. With the 44 gallon tank the pump will run 46 seconds and be off 3 minutes. The slower cycles is better for the pump but worse for your house pressure. When the pump is off the pressure will be dropping low for 3 minutes before the pump comes on, then the pressure will increase rapidly for 46 seconds. This makes for poor pressure in the shower, and many times makes a tankless water heater go on and off giving the shower a cold water sandwich.

Simply adding a CSV1A with the smaller tank would have been best. The CSV1A will also work with the 44 gallon tank, but you will still see the pressure falling for 3 minutes before the pump comes on. However, with the CSV, when the pump does come on the CSV will hold a strong constant pressure for as long as the shower is on, even if you shower for a month. Larger tanks make the pump cycle less, but deliver lower pressure to the house for longer times. A CSV and a small tank delivers constant pressure quicker, and for as long as you need it.
 

DblDogDare

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Thanks all for the advice/opinions!! I went ahead and ordered the CSV1A. I will use it with my existing smaller tank for now. I can either save the new tank for the future when my small tank goes up, or sell it as an assembly later.
 

Hulk

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I'm not expert except from google searches and common sense, but in my opinion you could do quite a bit better.
So, IMHO:
If you want to do it right, get a water test so you have an idea of what you're trying to treat.
Cartridge filters should not be used for a whole house filter as they have limited flow and can be a maintenance nightmare.
If sediment is an issue and can't be corrected at the source, use a hydra spin down filter.
If further filtering is required, use a backflush filter with appropriate media.
The CDC recommends a 1 micron filter before a UV light since large particles can block the light from reaching the targeted contaminants. UV is also not effective against things such as cryptosporidium and the bulbs have to be replaced often to remain effectiveness.
While chlorine can be pretty hard on things over time, I'm not sure how shocking a well would have any effect on the pump. In fact, many pumps are subjected to constant chorine via pellet chlorinators. Either way, it seems like your well should have been flushed at a minimum.
 

Reach4

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Yes, I believe that without the UV light, some of the contaminants likely passed through while the light was inoperable. In timing my well pump with a single shower running, the pump runs about 23 seconds, and off for about 1.30 minutes, and cycles again around these numbers. The gauge needs to be replaced as it is a 200 psi (not sure why such a high psi...) When pump stops, pre-charge on the pressure tank is at 52psi.
Precharge is always set and measured when the water pressure is zero. If the water pressure is higher than the air precharge, then the water pressure gauge and air pressure gauge should read about the same. That is a good way to compare calibration.

The pressures can differ a tad due to the altitude off the water pressure gauge being different than the altitude of the diaphragm. Another factor is that there may be that the diaphragm is not totally limp. The net difference is probably less than 1 psi.
 

Reach4

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I'm not expert except from google searches and common sense, but in my opinion you could do quite a bit better.
So, IMHO:
If you want to do it right, get a water test so you have an idea of what you're trying to treat.
Cartridge filters should not be used for a whole house filter as they have limited flow and can be a maintenance nightmare.
If sediment is an issue and can't be corrected at the source, use a hydra spin down filter.
If further filtering is required, use a backflush filter with appropriate media.
The CDC recommends a 1 micron filter before a UV light since large particles can block the light from reaching the targeted contaminants. UV is also not effective against things such as cryptosporidium and the bulbs have to be replaced often to remain effectiveness.
While chlorine can be pretty hard on things over time, I'm not sure how shocking a well would have any effect on the pump. In fact, many pumps are subjected to constant chorine via pellet chlorinators. Either way, it seems like your well should have been flushed at a minimum.
That was a thoughtful comment, but I differ with some. Sediment varies. A lab test doesn't usually tell you about sediment. A well that produces a little sand or silt is probably best off to use a cartridge filter. A spin down filter is good for moderate quantities of sand, but not so good with fine sediment.

Backwashing filters can be called whole house filters, as can cartridge filters. Often you have both in series. All of the water for the house goes through both.

Sanitizing could break stuff loose. You hope that gets pumped up and out, but it is possible you could knock of something bigger. I have not had that problem, but I accept that as a risk.

Most UV light recommendations call for a 5 micron filter. Do you have a link to where the CDC recommends 1 micron?
 

LLigetfa

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While chlorine can be pretty hard on things over time, I'm not sure how shocking a well would have any effect on the pump.
Chlorine can precipitate iron that can clog the pump volutes. Precipitated iron can be like baby poop on a mohair blanket.
 

Hulk

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Most UV light recommendations call for a 5 micron filter. Do you have a link to where the CDC recommends 1 micron?
I can't find the quote on the CDC site but I'm pretty sure I saw it there. Perhaps I actually saw it quoted somewhere else such as https://watersafepro.com/germicidal.html which may or may not be accurate.
I should clarify too that UV IS effective against cryptosporidium but you would need particles smaller than 1 micron in order for it to be exposed to UV.
 

Reach4

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Good enough site for me. 5 micron is the number I have seen cited. I figure the UV comes from a big area, so a 5 or even 10 micron odd particle is not going to offer enough shade to save a bacterium. I don't use UV, and I suspect some those with deep wells do so because of poor sampling technique. I do see that IRB and SRB could be a good reason. They are not pathogenic.

Those are said to be slow growing. I wonder if better sanitizing every couple of years for many wells could hold those down. That's my plan. I have never tried to test for them. I have just presumed that would be positive, but I suspect it's largely a matter of population density.
 

Craigpump

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In case no one told you, the impellers in your new Bruiser pump are the same as in your old Bruiser pump. The only difference is the motor mount and discharge heads, they’re stainless.

BTW, I wasn’t aware that Bruisers were still being made.
 
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