Well water treatment system configuration.

[The rookie]

New home owner with well water quality issues and I’ve received a lot conflicting information. Water tastes and smells horrible. Stained toilets(yellow water) and hard water stains on everything.

Thorough analysis of water from national testing lab.

IRON- 1.01 mg/l
IRON BACTERIA- IRB population 2200 CFU/ml
HARDNESS-29 gpg (489 mg/l)
TDS-641
CALCIUM-158 mg/l
MAGNESIUM- 23.9 mg/l
SULFATES-270***?
TURBIDITY-14.5 NTU
PH-7.2 (that’s good news I think)
TOTAL ALKALINITY-234 mg/l
Rotten egg smell from cold and hot faucet
My well flow rate is 6.
We have copper pipes.
3 bathrooms in home.
3 adults

My current plan (in this order)
1. Sediment filter (what kind and size?)
2. Iron and Sulfer filter with backwash and chlorine injection (what kind and size?)
3. Softener (single or double tank?)
4. Carbon filter to remove any residual chlorine.

And I don’t know what to do about the high level of sulfates. An R/O at the faucet in kitchen will be ok but what about the water for the rest of the house? Refrigerator/washer/showers/ bathroom faucets/ etc??? Will sulfates cause scale build-up on plumbing fixtures? I was actually prepared for the expense of a whole house R/O system until I learned that copper pipes will not work with R/O. I can’t re-pipe the entire house. Deionizing systems are not generally used in residential water systems it that’s the only other method to remove sulfates?? True or false?
The last professional I hired told me very honesty “I’ve never had to deal with sulfates” and he couldn’t recommend anything other than the R/O at sink.

 

[Reach4]

My current plan (in this order)
1. Sediment filter (what kind and size?)
2. Iron and Sulfer filter with backwash and chlorine injection (what kind and size?)
3. Softener (single or double tank?)
4. Carbon filter to remove any residual chlorine.

For sure, softener is after carbon.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Valveman]

Moving to softener forum where you will get more help.

 

[Gsmith22]

sulfates are commonly removed with anion ion exchange system. Anion exchange takes out all the negatively charged ions (which sulfate is) and is the mirror image of a cation ion exchange (better known as a water softener) which removes all the positively charged ions (Ca, Mg, etc.) Typically you run through the softener first and then the anion exchange (it likes soft water). so anion exchange tank would be "3a" in your order of treatment. downside to this is anion exchange will probably drop your pH (because it also removes carbonates). Its hard to know how much it will drop the pH but your 7.2 (which is great) would likely become mid 6 (which isn't so great). trading high sulfate for a corrosion problem. If you do this, keep carbon in step 4 (it will clean up taste/odor from anion) and I would recommend soda ash injection after the carbon tank to bring the pH back up (so step 5; re-adding carbonates the anion exchange took out) rather than a calcite tank which will bring pH back but also add all the hardness back that you took out with the softener prior. This isn't deionizing because you are pulling Ca and Mg and adding Na with the softener and then pulling SO4 (and other negatively charged ions) and adding Cl- in its place. So your water has the same TDS after these, just not the ions that cause problems. Deionized water is just H2O (theoretically) and is problematic because H2O doesn't want to stay pure - likes having dissolved solids so it eats your pipes or whatever else it comes in contact with.

Someone else will come along with possibly better ideas but sulfates at that level are said to cause diarrhea. EPA considers it a secondary MCL but that sounds like a primary one to me if there ever was one. Apparently whoever wrote the MCL levels didn't have to drink high sulfate water.

 

[The rookie]

Gsmith- thanks a lot! I’m having a hard time accepting sulphates and the idea of living with a single source of drinkable water in my entire house. (the kitchen sink with R/O) If that is truly my only solution, we wouldn’t even be able to use the ice maker/water dispenser from the fridge because there is no way to attach RO to fridge waterline. God forbid one of the kids want to get a glass of water from the bathroom at night....this is a mess.

your solution sounds good, all though I’m still sacrificing by having high TDS at the end? Correct?
What IF, I did do the calcite tank to bring PH back-up and THEN another softener at the end?? Yeah I will get two separate softener systems if necessary! What do you think? Can everyone see this post? Feel free to get creative with me.

 

[Reach4]

If that is truly my only solution, we wouldn’t even be able to use the ice maker/water dispenser from the fridge because there is no way to attach RO to fridge waterline.

That implies you are on a slab.

There are remineralization filters to follow an RO.
There are whole-house deionization systems or RO systems. Expensive, but you may be a candidate to at least look into that.

Sulfate is not a health threat, although it may have a bit of a laxative effect. https://www.epa.gov/sdwa/secondary-drinking-water-standards-guidance-nuisance-chemicals https://archive.epa.gov/water/archive/web/html/sulfate.html

An RO unit under the bathroom sink is a possibility if you have a vanity and not a pedestal sink or floating sink etc.

 

[Gsmith22]

there are many ways to skin the cat. Your primary problem looks like iron and iron bacteria followed by hardness followed by sulfates. I responded about the sulfates as it seemed to be the part you didn't know what to do about. But certainly don't ignore the iron/iron bacteria part. That can be accomplished many ways but typically you inject chlorine (or another oxidizer) that turns the clear water iron to rust particulate which is then filtered out. So your step 2 probably has several intermediate steps (a to inject chlorine, b maybe is a contact tank, and c a filter to remove the rust particulate?) to deal with iron before going to the softener. Again, others will have a better answer here as I am really only broadly familiar (its not an issue my well water has).

TDS is short for total dissolved solids. Unless very high, its not really a problem. its only describing the total amount of "stuff" dissolved in the water. I just brought it up because you were mentioning deionized water which would have no or very low TDS to compare that with ion exchange which doesn't change the total dissolved solids. RO removes dissolved solids from water so TDS goes down. Ion exchange does what its name implies - trades out dissolved solids you don't want (Calcium, Magnesium, Sulfates) for ones that are harmless (Sodium chloride) so TDS stays the same the minerals that makeup the TDS are now different. As Reach pointed out above, its often done where RO is used to remove stuff you don't want (versus using a different technique such as ion exchange) and then the water is remineralized/reionized after. You don't generally want to drink highly pure H2O as it can attack attempting to dissolve whatever it touches.

With respect to using a backwashing calcite tank followed by a second softener all after the anion exchange instead of soda ash injection - sure you could do that but why? Soda ash injection isn't very complex and you don't have media or backwashing tanks to deal with. You have a solution tank that gets a soda ash/water mixture that is pumped into the water line (just like you would be doing with the chlorine for the iron). The solution raises the pH of the water and once dialed in, you really don't have to do much. If your water source is a deep well, then its unlikely the water changes much over time so you really only have to figure out the soda ash solution concentration and pump setting once.

But I do agree that your three issues are divergent requiring different techniques and at a certain point you run out of room or money for more equipment. So you certainly could be a good candidate for RO at the entry point of the house and then remineralize after so you don't have very pure water eating your copper pipes. It would be common to feed the RO with softened water so you would still need a softener for that and I am guessing you have to still take care of the iron ahead of both the softener and RO so it doesn't foul those things up. Dittohead is probably the best person to address your situation and paths forward. hoping he comes along here soon....

 

[The rookie]

Adding R/O tkninsocudual sknk

That implies you are on a slab.

There are remineralization filters to follow an RO.
There are whole-house deionization systems or RO systems. Expensive, but you may be a candidate to at least look into that.

Sulfate is not a health threat, although it may have a bit of a laxative effect. https://www.epa.gov/sdwa/secondary-drinking-water-standards-guidance-nuisance-chemicals https://archive.epa.gov/water/archive/web/html/sulfate.html

An RO unit under the bathroom sink is a possibility if you have a vanity and not a pedestal sink or floating sink etc.

Having an individual RO system at each sink and fridge isn’t an option. Cutting, pulling up floor, changing vanities, and removing a cabinet isn’t worth the hassle for limited water supply (small R/O tank) not to mention the water pressure. I’m getting some good information for removing the sulphate sand then doing a soda ash injection. If the soda ash is compatible with everything else I need to remove iron/sulfur/hardness etc. I’m willing to give that a go, hoping the water doesn’t taste bad at the end of everything.
As far as an R/O system for the entire house or “at point of entry” into the house, is this even possible for a house with copper pipes? I didn’t think it was an option because I can’t re-pipe the entire house.
I just want good water. My daughters starting to get eczema and she’s constantly itching her skin and scratching herself. I have to do whatever it takes. I haven’t messaged dittohead yet because I want to get my ducks in a row before I go asking where to buy stuff. I at least need to know what to ask for.

 

[The rookie]

So something like this...

iron/sulfur filter with backwash/chlorine injection with contact tank
carbon filter
Softener

Then one of the following (TBD)

Deionizer to remove sulphates followed by soda ash injection to increase ph and another carbon filter???

or whole house RO system and then whatever I need to put some good minerals back into the water so it doesn’t eat my pipes??

Result- GREAT WATER???

 

[Gsmith22]

at some point you will have to shock chlorinate your well and plumbing system to get rid of the iron bacteria. Reach4 has a writeup on it somewhere on this site. That should be a one time only thing but from reading other posts, seems like iron bacteria can come and go. too many variables to predict at least from the cheap seats where I am sitting. I have no experience with it but just pointing this out as it hasn't really been discussed.

1. Provide some sort of bulk filter after your pressure tank/pressure switch tee and before all water treatment just to filter out large particulate from the well. rusco, ispring, etc. I have an atlas filtri hydra. exact model doesn't matter so long as it is filtering something on the order of 100 microns or maybe a little less so that it remains relatively high flow, there isn't a filter cartridge to change out, and occasionally you need to backwash it (usually via valving on the filter) for like 10 to 20 seconds to clear debris. Any iron that is ferric (ie its a rust particle already) will probably get taken out here.

2. You want to remove the clear water iron (ferrous) first (it can foul the softener because it is a cation and softeners are poor ways to remove iron). so chemical inject an oxidizer which changes ferrous into ferric and then filter it out. I'm fuzzy on details but this is the basic jist.

3. Take out hardness with softener (anion wants to be fed with soft water)
4. Take out sulfates with anion exchange (which lowers pH)
5. Backwashing carbon to remove residual chlorine/byproducts and clean up taste/smell/color of water (well water generally and from anion exchange just prior)
6. pH adjustment - soda ash injection (or alternatively your calcite backwashing tank+second softener)

I've seen others also recommend polyphosphate injection instead of true pH adjustment (my soda ash or your calcite+second softener). polyphosphate is supposed to coat the interior of the pipes so that lower pH can't attack them. I opted for true pH adjustment using soda ash on my well water system.

If you wanted to use an RO system, they you keep #1-#3, then RO, then I guess some sort of remineralizer.

It hasn't been discussed yet, but in my case I have a relatively low flowing well (3gpm) and I am on a septic system. I took RO out as an option because it uses water to make water and depending on the quality of the RO system, can use more water than it makes. I wasn't interested in wasting water that I paid to pump up to the ground surface that is already somewhat scarce due to my well output. In addition, I wasn't interested in sending extra water to my 30yr old septic system that has a finite end point somewhere in my future. I wanted to push this out as far as possible. That is also why I choose soda ash instead of two more tanks to backwash which will add to waste water. Lots of things to consider. no right answers only choices.

 

[The rookie]

This is exactly why I needed this site! All of these details are what makes this process so daunting. R/O is off the list foe sure. I can’t afford less pressure and I certainly don’t want to waste more water. I read reach4 process of sanitizing well and we are doing that this weekend. It’s supposed to be around 70 degrees so if that doesn’t change we will be good there. I messaged Dittohead and now it’s just figuring out the hardware, valves, etc. this is the Part that really throws me off. I see light at the end of the tunnel. Thanks!

 

[Charlie Bosco]

That implies you are on a slab.

There are remineralization filters to follow an RO.
There are whole-house deionization systems or RO systems. Expensive, but you may be a candidate to at least look into that.

Sulfate is not a health threat, although it may have a bit of a laxative effect. https://www.epa.gov/sdwa/secondary-drinking-water-standards-guidance-nuisance-chemicals https://archive.epa.gov/water/archive/web/html/sulfate.html

An RO unit under the bathroom sink is a possibility if you have a vanity and not a pedestal sink or floating sink etc.

I have an RO system under my bathroom sink and feed the RO water directly to my fridge on the other side of the wall.. Works perfectly. You can even ditch the Carbon filter in the fridge since it's not needed anymore.. My RO system has a remineralization cartridge as well. Coffee tastes awesome.