Well water pressure troubleshooting

[A Carter]

Recently, we've been having issues with water pressure from our well system. I noticed that our pump seemed to be kicking on more frequently and for shorter times than usual, so I drained our pressure tank and checked the air bladder pressure, which was low (~24 psi, while our system is set for a 40/60 cut-in/cut-off). I added air to the bladder to get it up to 38 psi, then filled the tank back up and returned service to the house. The pressure seemed to be worse at the faucets afterwards, but the pump took longer to kick on and would rn for about 1 minute before kicking off.

Fast forward to this morning - I went to take a shower, and the pressure was next to nothing. I went down to the well pump and noticed that the tank felt pretty empty and the pump still hadn't kicked on. I checked the pressure of the tank at the Schrader valve, and it was reading 38 psi, so I would think the pump should have kicked on at this point, but didn't. I bled some air from the bladder to drop the tank pressure a bit more and the pump didn't kick on until I got somewhere below 32-34 psi. Am I thinking about this wrong - If the bladder pressure is higher than the cut-in pressure, the tank pressure wouldn't get to the cut-in pressure and the pump wouldn't know to kick on, right?

I'm currently thinking one possibility is that I may have kicked up some sediment servicing the tank that gunked up our sediment filter, which would explain the decreased water pressure since I'm getting a 60 psi reading with a full tank, but I was wondering if the pump switch could be a factor as well? I'm thinking of connecting my digital pressure gauge to the Schrader valve on my pump tank and watching what the pressure does as the tank empties and the pump kicks on to see where it is cutting on and off and then adjusting the switch to get it back to 40/60 (not sure how it got changed, but maybe it happened?).

Thanks in advance!

 

[Reach4]

Am I thinking about this wrong - If the bladder pressure is higher than the cut-in pressure, the tank pressure wouldn't get to the cut-in pressure and the pump wouldn't know to kick on, right?

Yes. You are thinking about it wrong. If the air precharge were 100 psi, the pressure would fall enough to turn on the pressure switch. In fact, the pressure would fall quicker.

One possibility is that the nipple feeding the pump got gunked up, or the pressure switch itself got gunked up. Is the pressure gauge on the same nipple?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[A Carter]

Yes. You are thinking about it wrong. If the air precharge were 100 psi, the pressure would fall enough to turn on the pressure switch. In fact, the pressure would fall quicker.

One possibility is that the nipple feeding the pump got gunked up, or the pressure switch itself got gunked up. Is the pressure gauge on the same nipple?

I'm a complete newbie to this, so please forgive me for not knowing what I'm looking at when I look at my pump setup.

Here is a picture of what it looks like down there.

 

[Reach4]

Your symptom is that the pressure gauge over the pump gets to below 34 psi before the pressure switch turns on. It used to turn on at 40 psi.

It is best to jumper out the pressure gauge on the pump, and mount one at the input of the pressure tank. However you could try adjusting the existing pressure switch by turning the nut on the big spring clockwise 2 to 2.5 turns.

 

[A Carter]

Your symptom is that the pressure gauge over the pump gets to below 34 psi before the pressure switch turns on. It used to turn on at 40 psi.

It is best to jumper out the pressure gauge on the pump, and mount one at the input of the pressure tank. However you could try adjusting the existing pressure switch by turning the nut on the big spring clockwise 2 to 2.5 turns.

Thank you! I'll take a crack and adjusting the existing switch, and if that doesn't work, I'll look into replacing the switch.

Do you think that the overall drop is water pressure at my plumbing fixtures is more likely sediment getting stirred up from my tinkering and gumming up the whole house sediment filter?

 

[Reach4]

Do you think that the overall drop is water pressure at my plumbing fixtures is more likely sediment getting stirred up from my tinkering and gumming up the whole house sediment filter?

A well will often have sediment. Sediment can clog filter cartridges. You don't need to tinker to get sediment.

 

[A Carter]

A well will often have sediment. Sediment can clog filter cartridges. You don't need to tinker to get sediment.

I guess I'm just wondering why my adjustment of the air bladder pressure from 24 to 38 psi caused the water pressure throughout the house to drop so significantly from what it was before I adjusted the bladder pressure? And the pressure seems to swing much more dramatically from the high end to the low end (before it was noticeable, but now it goes from an okay stream to a trickle and back up).

 

[Reach4]

I guess I'm just wondering why my adjustment of the air bladder pressure from 24 to 38 psi caused the water pressure throughout the house to drop so significantly from what it was before I adjusted the bladder pressure? And the pressure seems to swing much more dramatically from the high end to the low end (before it was noticeable, but now it goes from an okay stream to a trickle and back up).

So check the pressure gauge at the pump and a pressure gauge after the cartridge filters. You can use the drain valve on the WH to mount a garden hose thread pressure gauge temporarily.

But yes, emptying the pressure tank (tinkering) could have released some accumulated sediment, and partially clogged the filter. Is that your filter to the upper left of the breaker panel? Keep an extra o-ring on hand. Sometimes they won't go back in when you change a cartridge. Cartridge looks awkward to change.

Speaking of awkward, it looks like a hard bump on your pump could damage the piping coming through the wall. Falling while changing that cartridge could make a big bump.

 

[A Carter]

So check the pressure gauge at the pump and a pressure gauge after the cartridge filters. You can use the drain valve on the WH to mount a garden hose thread pressure gauge temporarily.

But yes, emptying the pressure tank (tinkering) could have released some accumulated sediment, and partially clogged the filter. Is that your filter to the upper left of the breaker panel? Keep an extra o-ring on hand. Sometimes they won't go back in when you change a cartridge. Cartridge looks awkward to change.

Speaking of awkward, it looks like a hard bump on your pump could damage the piping coming through the wall. Falling while changing that cartridge could make a big bump.

Haha funny you mention that. I'm having someone come in to set us up with a new filter housing and relocate it someplace more convenient for changing out the cartridges on Tuesday of next week (I had a hell of a time last time standing on a ladder, ducking under the drain pipe while leaning out over the pressure tank and trying to get enough torque on the housing to get it opened - still young enough to move like that, but really would prefer not to). The pipe just before the housing is pretty corroded too, so its a little nerve-wracking to put much torque on and probably better to be proactive anyway...

Thanks for all the help!

 

[Reach4]

A "boiler drain valve" after the filter and before the softener would be useful. You could put a GHT pressure gauge on that. That is useful for seeing if the filter is clogged. You could draw a sample at that point.

With a ball valve before and after, you could isolate the filter if it fails. I have such valves. Then, if I ever need to bypass temporarily, I can run a potable water garden hose between the drain valve for my pressure tank and that boiler drain valve. Of course that would probably greatly add to the cost.

 

[Valveman]

Air in the tank has nothing to do with the pressure switch turning on the pump. If the pressure gauge is reading between 40 and 60 as it should, you should have the same pressure in the house, less what you loose through the filter. So yes if the filter is clogged you won't get good pressure in the house, but would still shoe good pressure on the gauge.

Although, it sounds to me like the pump is not coming on at 40 as it should some of the time. You may need a new starting capacitor on the motor and/or a new centrifugal start switch in the back side of the motor. Those two things and losing air in the tank are just a few symptoms of cycling the pump on/off too much.

Deep well or two pipe jet pumps work great with a Cycle Stop Valve. With a CSV you could also replace that large tank with a little 4.5 gallon size tank, which would free up a lot of room for your filter job. Plus, the CSV would provide strong constant pressure to the house and you would not be seeing those "dramatic" and annoying swings in pressure.

 

[A Carter]

A "boiler drain valve" after the filter and before the softener would be useful. You could put a GHT pressure gauge on that. That is useful for seeing if the filter is clogged. You could draw a sample at that point.

With a ball valve before and after, you could isolate the filter if it fails. I have such valves. Then, if I ever need to bypass temporarily, I can run a potable water garden hose between the drain valve for my pressure tank and that boiler drain valve. Of course that would probably greatly add to the cost.

Air in the tank has nothing to do with the pressure switch turning on the pump. If the pressure gauge is reading between 40 and 60 as it should, you should have the same pressure in the house, less what you loose through the filter. So yes if the filter is clogged you won't get good pressure in the house, but would still shoe good pressure on the gauge.

Although, it sounds to me like the pump is not coming on at 40 as it should some of the time. You may need a new starting capacitor on the motor and/or a new centrifugal start switch in the back side of the motor. Those two things and losing air in the tank are just a few symptoms of cycling the pump on/off too much.

Deep well or two pipe jet pumps work great with a Cycle Stop Valve. With a CSV you could also replace that large tank with a little 4.5 gallon size tank, which would free up a lot of room for your filter job. Plus, the CSV would provide strong constant pressure to the house and you would not be seeing those "dramatic" and annoying swings in pressure.

So last night the pressure dropped to where the shower wasn't even flowing, so I braved the acrobatics act of getting the filter housing off (unscathed) and that filter was very clogged up. The previous owners of the house apparently installed the housing in reverse, so the inside of the filter was caked with sediment, while the outside looked relatively clean. Replacing the filter led to a dramatic increase in our water pressure. Also looked into the switch and it's actually a 30/50 not a 40/60 like I assumed (I was going off of what I had seen the pressure gauge do in the past, so that obviously needs replacing). I drained the tank again, readjusted the bladder pressure to a few psi below the cut-in, and the pump seems to cycle fine.

One new thing though, is that with the improved flow at the plumbing fixtures, it seems as though our pump can't fill the pressure tank while the shower is running. I watched the pressure at the tank as the shower was running and it basically drops to cut-in, the pump kicks on, and the pressure just stays pretty steady (so pump is supplying at same rate as shower is flowing more or less). As soon as the shower is turned off, the pump starts adding water to the tank until the pressure hits cut off. Is this constant running of the pump while water is in high demand problematic or normal? It isn't an issue with sinks running, but I could see it being an issue with the washing machine and garden hoses running as well. Will these longer run times kill the pump eventually?

Thanks!

 

[Reach4]

So last night the pressure dropped to where the shower wasn't even flowing, so I braved the acrobatics act of getting the filter housing off (unscathed) and that filter was very clogged up. The previous owners of the house apparently installed the housing in reverse, so the inside of the filter was caked with sediment, while the outside looked relatively clean.

So the clear housing gave you a false impression. A bit funny, but glad that mystery is solved. Your local gettin' place probably has a "boiler drain valve" to add to your installation for after the new filter. Or you could permanently mount a pressure gauge after the filter. A 4.5 x 20 inch cartridge gives a lot more filter capacity and lower backpressure. A filter that is 2x as long has about twice the capacity and half of the backpressure. A filter 2x in diameter has about 4x improvement. But those 4.5 x 20 housing are heavy when full, and they will normally be full when you change the cartridge. So you would not want to be holding that at arm's length. A genuine Pentair Big Blue housing would be worth considering.

Some more sophisticated filter housings let you drain the sump, but I think they probably use less common filter cartridges.

Is this constant running of the pump while water is in high demand problematic or normal? It isn't an issue with sinks running, but I could see it being an issue with the washing machine and garden hoses running as well. Will these longer run times kill the pump eventually?

Not hard on the pump at all.

Your well may be sucking down quite a bit. Whether or not you see much air in your water will help determine your course of action. If your well is big enough diameter for a submersible pump, you could consider that.

On a different thing, setting the air precharge 2 psi below the cut-in is usually good for submersible pumps. A jet pump, as you have, takes longer to deliver. So if you experience a momentary pressure drop when the pump kicks on, lower the air precharge a bit. 5 psi below cut-in is often good for a jet pump. The momentary pressure drop is not harmful, but could be irritating. The downside of going too low for the air precharge is it stretches the diaphragm more when full. Plus with some tanks, it can cause loss of capacity.

If I were making changes to the input piping on a jet pump, I would consider a combination vacuum and pressure gauge. That would tell roughly how deep the water was currently. However more connections are more opportunities for vacuum leaks. The depth that a suction pump can suck from is limited by the current barometric pressure. But as the limit is approached, the more the water flow will be slowed.

 

[Bannerman]

Will these longer run times kill the pump eventually?

A well pump is made to run 24/7/365. It is the constant ON/OFF cycles which are damaging.

The video that Cary (Valveman) included in post #11 above, shows the operation of a Cycle Stop device that will control the flow rate from the pump so the pump will continue to run non-stop whenever more than 1 gallon per minute is being drawn. In addition to a CSV reducing pump cycles, a smaller pressure tank may be utilized, and the pressure to your fixtures will be more consistent once the pump is running.

If you haven't yet changed the flow direction through the filter, that needs to be given priority. The cartridge's internal surface area will be a fraction of the outer surface so blockage will continue to occur much more rapidly compared to when the flow is in the correct direction.

 

[Reach4]

The video that Cary (Valveman) included in post #11 above, shows the operation of a Cycle Stop device that will control the flow rate from the pump so the pump will continue to run non-stop whenever more than 1 gallon per minute is being drawn. In addition to a CSV reducing pump cycles, a smaller pressure tank may be utilized, and the pressure to your fixtures will be more consistent once the pump is running.

This pump would not be a good one to use with a CSV. He would need a more powerful pump I think.

 

[Bannerman]

I anticipate the pump should be capable of supplying greater than the 2.5 - 3.0 gpm typical for a single head shower. The flow rate could be lower than usual due to the injector being partially blocked. Simply using a piece of stiff wire to clear the injector may increase the flow rate substantially.

 

[Reach4]

I anticipate the pump should be capable of supplying greater than the 2.5 - 3.0 gpm typical for a single head shower. The flow rate could be lower than usual due to the injector being partially blocked. Simply using a piece of stiff wire to clear the injector may increase the flow rate substantially.

Good point; certainly worth trying. However the pressure rises nicely once the flow becomes low.

https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/pressure-drops-quick.67304/page-2#post-500629

Oooh Oooh.... Is that a plug (see attached img_2.jpg) where you could mount a gauge? Maybe Winters PFQ791 or PEM153?
https://www.supplyhouse.com/sh/control/search/~SEARCH_STRING=gauge 30 hg?searchText=gauge+30+hg

A strong vacuum would indicate the pump is doing all a suction pump can to draw water.

Those I mentioned go from 30 inches Hg of vacuum to 100 psi. Maybe one that only goes to 60, but the PCT330 is a 4.5 inch diameter gauge. Will that clear the pipe next to it, as it rotates on.?

I am guessing that plug is 1/4 NPT as the gauges are, but you would need to check that. Liquid filled gauges are better because they dampen the fluctuations and lubricate the innards. The liquid is safe.