Well Troubleshooting

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Reach4

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1. That thing does not look like a checkvalve.

2. Right. If the pump is not being activated periodically, and presuming there is not some hidden checkvalve, then I would think no leak.

3. You don't really have a major problem at this point, do you? It seems to me that you are studying and adjusting, but you are getting water reliably. You want to decide in advance what do do in the case of a failure. And what that should probably be is to message craigpump to ask who he would recommend in your area.

I expect that inconsistent pressure thing still bothersome? It seems to me that you have a pressure tank with a 5 or 6 gallon drawdown. However that tank might be nearly empty of water if it is near the cut-on point. Even if you went to a tank 4 times bigger, it would still be nearly empty at times if you use the standard 30/50 or 40/60 setpoints. If you are using 6 gallons per minute because of two or 3 loads (shower, lawn watering, etc), it seems that you could be pulling water faster than the pump can supply it. So you could get some significant pressure drop.

I understand that things are not all adding up. How far down is the water? If you have a well cap, pull the cover of and reflect the bright sun down the casing to see if you can see the water level. Or maybe you bright laser pointer could do it, but that might not be as good. I don't know what the failure modes are for a 25 year-old pump, but I wonder what would happen to the current if the impellers were getting worn.

Maybe you should get a new a pump able to pull 7 GPM or so if there is enough water in the well. That is an unknown, so if you get a pump that can pump faster, probably you would want a controller that shuts the pump off for a while if you lose water.

If you had been throwing about 30% of what your friends with city water pay for the monthly water bill into the well kitty, you would have accumulated a lot. Be happy-- not pissed. You are right to be prepared. It is good that you are proactive.
 
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1. That thing does not look like a checkvalve.

2. Right. If the pump is not being activated periodically, and presuming there is not some hidden checkvalve, then I would think no leak.

3. You don't really have a major problem at this point, do you? It seems to me that you are studying and adjusting, but you are getting water reliably. You want to decide in advance what do do in the case of a failure. And what that should probably be is to message craigpump to ask who he would recommend in your area.

I expect that inconsistent pressure thing still bothersome? It seems to me that you have a pressure tank with a 5 or 6 gallon drawdown. However that tank might be nearly empty of water if it is near the cut-on point. Even if you went to a tank 4 times bigger, it would still be nearly empty at times if you use the standard 30/50 or 40/60 setpoints. If you are using 6 gallons per minute because of two or 3 loads (shower, lawn watering, etc), it seems that you could be pulling water faster than the pump can supply it. So you could get some significant pressure drop.

I understand that things are not all adding up. How far down is the water? If you have a well cap, pull the cover of and reflect the bright sun down the casing to see if you can see the water level. Or maybe you bright laser pointer could do it, but that might not be as good. I don't know what the failure modes are for a 25 year-old pump, but I wonder what would happen to the current if the impellers were getting worn.

Maybe you should get a new a pump able to pull 7 GPM or so if there is enough water in the well. That is an unknown, so if you get a pump that can pump faster, probably you would want a controller that shuts the pump off for a while if you lose water.

If you had been throwing about 30% of what your friends with city water pay for the monthly water bill into the well kitty, you would have accumulated a lot. Be happy-- not pissed. You are right to be prepared. It is good that you are proactive.

Hi Reach,

I apologize for my "getting pissed" comment. "Frustrated" would be a better description. You all have been great.

I agree, we're not at a "failure" point, but the drop has me concerned. It's funny, our kids are finally out of the house. The water demand, except over holiday season, is at an all time minimum. When we have a lot of house-guests, as we will later this summer, this will become an issue, I think.

I haven't been able to find out how deep our well is. I'll try peeking down the well cap, using your suggestions. I didn't know you could see a water level down that thing. I don't think it's more than 50-80 feet at best, based on our street's elevation.

I should point out again that I'm amazed that this system has required ZERO maintenance over the past 23-24 years. I have no right to complain.

If you guys think of anything else I can check, please fire away.

Best,
Peter
 

Reach4

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Some people will drop an ice cube and time the plop.
 

Craigpump

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Contact your local health dept, there should be a well completion report on file. That will give you depth, amount of casing, who drilled it, yield, static level etc. Also ask if they have a pump permit.
 

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Contact your local health dept, there should be a well completion report on file. That will give you depth, amount of casing, who drilled it, yield, static level etc. Also ask if they have a pump permit.

[/QUOTE]
I've a wonderfully detailed copied of the "Well Driller's Permit", circa 1967. No depth. The guys who dug are gone. Lots of stuff regardig the septic, but very little on the well. What's a "pump permit"?
--Peter
 

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Some towns require a permit to be pulled when the pump is installed and the info can help determine depth, yield etc.
 

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1. That thing does not look like a checkvalve.

2. Right. If the pump is not being activated periodically, and presuming there is not some hidden checkvalve, then I would think no leak.

3. You don't really have a major problem at this point, do you? It seems to me that you are studying and adjusting, but you are getting water reliably. You want to decide in advance what do do in the case of a failure. And what that should probably be is to message craigpump to ask who he would recommend in your area.

I expect that inconsistent pressure thing still bothersome? It seems to me that you have a pressure tank with a 5 or 6 gallon drawdown. However that tank might be nearly empty of water if it is near the cut-on point. Even if you went to a tank 4 times bigger, it would still be nearly empty at times if you use the standard 30/50 or 40/60 setpoints. If you are using 6 gallons per minute because of two or 3 loads (shower, lawn watering, etc), it seems that you could be pulling water faster than the pump can supply it. So you could get some significant pressure drop.

I understand that things are not all adding up. How far down is the water? If you have a well cap, pull the cover of and reflect the bright sun down the casing to see if you can see the water level. Or maybe you bright laser pointer could do it, but that might not be as good. I don't know what the failure modes are for a 25 year-old pump, but I wonder what would happen to the current if the impellers were getting worn.

Maybe you should get a new a pump able to pull 7 GPM or so if there is enough water in the well. That is an unknown, so if you get a pump that can pump faster, probably you would want a controller that shuts the pump off for a while if you lose water.

If you had been throwing about 30% of what your friends with city water pay for the monthly water bill into the well kitty, you would have accumulated a lot. Be happy-- not pissed. You are right to be prepared. It is good that you are proactive.


Hey Reach,
The spec sheet for this Grundfos pump says it has an "internal checkvalve". It also says a control box is "required". So, why don't I have a control box on this set up? Just curious.

Peter
 

Reach4

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The spec sheet for this Grundfos pump says it has an "internal checkvalve". It also says a control box is "required". So, why don't I have a control box on this set up? Just curious.
7S05-11 is available with 2 wire motors too. See Grundfos 31595115

I think it is also available with 120 VAC motors, which would draw twice as much current.
 

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Some people will drop an ice cube and time the plop.

I did the ice cube drop test.
ping, ping, clang, plop!
Somewhere around 4 seconds.
Would that be 256 feet? (16 x 4 x 4 )
That's way deeper than I'd expected, but I don't have a clue of what's normal in this area.
 

Reach4

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That 256 feet is for a body in a vacuum. It is not going to go that far in air. Plus the pings and clangs take something away from the speed too. https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100814050957AAsNUgt discusses this a bit. http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2005/AliciaKosiba.shtml The pump curve would predict something like roughly 120 or 140 ft.

Then, if you really want to carry the calculation further, sound travels at about 1000 feet/sec to hear the plop. That is going to be some delay on the order of 100 ms I suspect.

As an inquisitive person, if you put a new pump in, you could tape some open-end tubing along the downpipe. Blow air and measure the pressure to compute how far the end of the tubing is below the water level.
 
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Craigpump

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Or you could have someone with a Well Sounder check the static, pump the water level down and then record the recovery rate.
 

PSikes

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Or you could have someone with a Well Sounder check the static, pump the water level down and then record the recovery rate.

I love the idea of actually knowing what the heck I've got. I'd never heard of a "Well Sounder", but it sounds awesome. Static level measurement, stressed level (down), and finally a measurement of the time it takes to get back to static? Great!
Who do you know up this way Craigpump? I've got a few referrals. Friends of friends. Everything seems to suggest I replace the 23+ year-old pump with the same model. They're less than $600 online. I should get some quotes, before the system's performance degrades further.

Is this something I can try myself, if I choose to? No alterations (beyond the little stuff already done) -- just a a pump swap for the same model?
What would it entail, besides blackmailing my two sons to haul the sucker out of the ground? Probably what, less than 70 ft to the water? (4 sec x 17). How much digging would have to be done to get down to the downpipe?

Thanks again,

Peter
 

Craigpump

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The well sticks out of the ground? No digging, just a special tool to retrieve the pitless. I would NEVER replace just the pump, put new wire in too along with a pressure switch, gauge & nipple package. Probably a state approved well cap as well. We aren't here to nickel and dime a customer, we want that system as reliable as possible before we leave.

You may find a pump for $600 online, but you will have a tough time finding a licensed pump or well guy to install it...

Oh yeah, it's amazing how heavy they are when you pull them out by hand.

This is a Well Sounder, we use ours every day. We also have well locating equipment, hoist truck, small excavator, and a sophisticated well camera system. Craigpump.com
 

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PSikes

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The well sticks out of the ground? No digging, just a special tool to retrieve the pitless. I would NEVER replace just the pump, put new wire in too along with a pressure switch, gauge & nipple package. Probably a state approved well cap as well. We aren't here to nickel and dime a customer, we want that system as reliable as possible before we leave.

You may find a pump for $600 online, but you will have a tough time finding a licensed pump or well guy to install it...

Oh yeah, it's amazing how heavy they are when you pull them out by hand.

This is a Well Sounder, we use ours every day. We also have well locating equipment, hoist truck, small excavator, and a sophisticated well camera system. Craigpump.com


Rodger,
You guys work up here too? We're a long way from Southbury, and I'd have loved to have you help.
Yes, the well cap is about 12-16 inches above ground. The Well Sounder sounds pretty cool, as do the other advanced diagnostic tools.
If you were here to "nickel and dime customers", you wouldn't be on this board. You've already demonstrated a willingness to help out us clueless newbies. For that, you're to be commended. You've already earned the respect of your peers. Thank you.
I'm sorry you're offended at my suggestion that I might actually attempt to replace the submersible pump myself, much less replace a "pressure switch, gauge & nipple package." I actually thought I was being proactive.

I will call around tomorrow. If you'd like to give me an idea of what you think this might cost that would be helpful. I realize that might not be possible without a site inspection, and I don't blame you. There's no email contact on your website, so I'll call .

Best,
Peter
 
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