Well Pump - Voltage going down / No water coming up

[Reynaulto]

Hi Friends,

Possible well pump problem. I'm trying to understand what might be going on here:

1. New pressure switch (40-60) and new pressure tank installed a few months ago. All worked great until...
2. One week ago, water stopped. I ran down and looked at the pressure gauge - it read like 5psi. The contacts on the pressure switch were closed. The circuit breaker was not tripped.
3. I grabbed my DVM - I was getting 240V into the pressure switch, and 240V going out to the well pump.
4. After about a minute of pondering this current condition, the pump turns on by itself and water returns to the house.
5. For what it's worth, our well is 48 feet deep. I can hear a low hum when it is on, and I can feel water course through the pipe to the pressure tank when it is on.
6. This situation has repeated itself 4 times in the last week. Starting to get a bit worried. The good news is it always starts back up after a few minutes.

The end question is this: Why is my well pump not turning on even though I can see it's getting 240V.

Thanks for all thoughts.
(First time post here)
-Rey

 

[Reach4]

1. Is this a "2 wire" (no control box) or "3 wire" (has control box), and if "3 wire", how old is the control box?
2. When the pump delays starting, how long has it been since the pump was on?
3. How old is the pump?
4. Are you confident that you are looking at the right terminals in the pressure switch... When the pump shuts off because the cut-off pressure has been achieved, the correct terminals should show zero volts.

If you have an old control box, replace the start capacitor or the whole control box.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reynaulto]

Answer to Reach4's questions:
1. This is a 2 wire system. It has no control box.
2. When the pump delays, the water had been running at that moment. I would venture to guess the pump had been running, too, rather than just running on the pressure tank.
3. Pump is 11 years old.
4. I checked pressure switch voltage during "the problem" and also during normal "pump on" time and "pump off" time. Voltages at the pressure switch terminals are all logical during normal times. Even during "the problem" times, the voltages appear normal. It's just that the pump isn't pumping when it appears it should be.

Thanks for your rapid response. This forum is a wealth of information for this and many other areas of interest.
-Rey

 

[Reach4]

Pumps have a thermal cutoff. It is possible that is keeping the pump off. It is not normal that the thermal cutoff trips if there is water flow, because the water flow normally cools the water. You want to observe what has preceded the symptom.

Measuring the current drawn by the pump could be useful. There are clamp-around ammeters that are useful for that. With a thermal cutoff, the current would be expected to be zero. I would expect no hum during that time.

4. To be clear, do you read zero volts to the pump at times?

 

[Reynaulto]

Hi again, Reach4,

Thanks for your kind assistance. I can borrow a clamp on ammeter from some dudes at work.

4. Yes - I do get zero volts to the pump at times. When the pressure switch hits 60psi, and I can see the contacts open up, the voltage is zero on the pump terminals at that time.

Further clarification:
4a. With the pump running normally: I see 240V on the pump terminals of the pressure switch.
4b. With the pump not running (pressure switch shut it off): I see 0V on the pump terminals.
4c. With the problem described above: I see 240V on the pump terminals (yet the pump does not pump at this time)

Just minutes ago, lovely wife was taking a shower, so I went out to check out my well. I took off the cap and heard a nice, even, hum. But after a few minutes of this nice hum, a not-so-nice sound started up. It sounded like sucking the remaining chunks of a milkshake out of the bottom of a cup. Am I sucking air? The pump kept pumping for another minute and stopped. I ran downstairs to see the pressure switch cut it off, thus, "the problem" did not occur at this time.

Hmmmm....
-Rey

 

[ThirdGenPump]

The amp probe will get you all the answers. It's very hard to know what's going on without one.

At 48 feet you should be able to see the pump with a flashlight if the waters actually getting down to it.

 

[Reach4]

Maybe somebody with experience will say if a pump running out of water has a slurping sound. Makes sense to me. I am not a pro. If you are slurping air, I would have thought that air would sometimes burp through your faucets. If you were in California, wells going dry would be more common. I wouldn't have thought about West Lafayette water table getting low.

If you run out of water, the current will drop. That might drop 30% depending on the pump. Then the There are devices that you can run your power through that will shut things down if you run out of water. The device shuts down the well for an interval to let things recover. If there is no water, that could make the pump heat up.

Sometimes data about the well is written down on the pressure tank by a former owner or well pump person. If you know how far down the pump and how high the water table is, that could be useful. You could maybe measure the static level -- depending on how much clearance there is around your pitless adapter. You might be able to look down the well and estimate the water depth.

Start checking with neighbors about who is a good well service. The well specialists will know the local aquifers, and will be able to diagnose things. If the problem is your pump, budget maybe $1500 or so to get that replaced. If the well is going dry, that would be worse. What diameter is your casing?

 

[Reynaulto]

A few thoughts before bedtime:

1. The previous owner of this house is my next door neighbor. He has a wealth of knowledge on the history of this well, so I consider it pretty solid data.
2. I tried looking down my well pipe tonight with my super spotlight flashlight. I couldn't get a real clear line of sight, but I did see a reflection - supposedly from water. That sure is hard to estimate how far down it is.
3. It's been pretty wet and moist here. I can't imagine the well sucking air. And no - we have no sputtering or air in our faucets. Perhaps the occasional bloop, but nothing major.
4. Our casing looks to be about 4 inches in diameter.
5. I'll get that ammeter tomorrow and play around with it. Hopefully I can catch the next problem session with the ammeter at the ready.

Thanks,
-Rey

 

[Valveman]

The amp meter will tell you what is going on. Low amps means your pumping air. High amps means your pump has already cycled enough in 11 years to need replacing. 11 years is on the high side of the average for pumps that cycle on and off while you are using water. Cycling is what usually causes the average life to be about 7 years.

 

[Reynaulto]

I borrowed a Fluke ammeter from my buddy. I put it on one hot leg right at the top of the well header - that was the easiest place to find a place to clamp on. I did one test earlier in the day, and one test just now as my boy was filling up his bathtub. I have good luck, because I caught my "dead pump phenomenon" just now with the ammeter attached.

Test 1: Earlier today:
Pump turned on, and amps read 3.2 real steady. It dropped to 3.1 by the end of its 2 minute cycle. No "slurping" noises observed from the well. It was a nice, steady hum.

Test 2: Just 10 minutes ago (boy filling up his bathtub):
Pump turned on, and amps read steady at 3.2 again. After 40 seconds, I heard the slurping noise, and amps dropped to 2.8. It cycled between normal hum and slurp / between 3.2 to 2.8 amps. This frequency cycle was about once every 3 to 5 seconds. After about 10 to 15 cycles of this, the pump stopped. No water to the house - the bathtub fill stopped. Ammeter reads 0.1 Amps at this time. Pump restarted by itself after about 3 to 4 minutes. Normal hum/slurp cycle resumed after 40 seconds, but kept on pumping and filled the pressure tank to 60psi.

So, according to Valveman, this would indicate I'm sucking air and the pump doesn't like it. This sounds like a rather expensive repair, or is it too early to assume the worst?

Thoughts?
-Rey

 

[Valveman]

Yeah that is what it acts like when you suck the well dry. Sorry! It could be the well screen just needs cleaning or the well production has dropped. You will either need to get this fixed, or switch to a cistern storage tank and booster pump to get what you can from the well as it exist. And you will have to do the later if the former doesn't work.

 

[Reach4]

Best case (cheapest), I think, is if the well people find that you can lower the pump maybe 10 ft. Does your pump suck much sediment? Typically if there is sufficient water, the pump is set about 20 ft of of the bottom. That is to allow sediment to settle and not get sucked into the pump.

You could get a device to shut the pump off for a while when you run out of water. Maybe look into how much water your son puts into the tub.

A new deeper well would be the effective expensive cure.

 

[Reynaulto]

I reckon I'll be calling in the pros from here. Very good to hear there may be a few options. I'll submit another reply to this forum after I get the official word from the well professionals. Thanks for helping me think this one through. I appreciate the time y'all took to help out! -Rey

 

[Reynaulto]

Update:

I called in the local well dudes. I called the name that was on the well cap figuring they had history with this hole. And boy, they sure did. Even the lady in the office said, "Oh, you're in that area of the county? Well, we've had lots of calls in the last week of wells going dry out that way."

Oh boy. I could feel the old bank account dry up.

To make a longer story short, he ended up confirming I'm sucking air. (Pumping Out is the terminology). After a few tests and such, he confirmed water levels have dropped on this well, too, as well as a few of the nearby neighbors. He ended up dropping the pump 7.5 feet and added a flow restrictor. Evidently, that restrictor will slow my pumping rate and allow the well to replenish water and not "pump out".

They recommend I call the Division of Water within the DNR and let them know my findings. If they have enough complaints, they can do some research and perhaps find why water levels are lower here.

I do not know what this will mean for future drier times, but for now, we're good.

-Rey

 

[Valveman]

Sounds like a cistern storage tank and extra booster pump are in your future. You will need something like a Cycle Sensor to protect the well pump if it runs dry. Then you can use a Pside-Kick kit to control the booster pump from the cistern.

Cisterns are designed to be filled with a small amount of water for long periods of time, so you can use large amounts of water for short periods of time as needed.

Even if the well only makes 1 GPM, that is 1440 gallons per day if you have a cistern to store it.