Well pump keeps cycling - Need help troubleshooting

[douglasr]

Residential Well System - 1HP Pump (New as of 3/2017) to a 20 Gallon Pressure Tank (New as of 09/2016). The D-Square 30-50PSI pressure switch, gauge, and T connection were all replaced at the same time as the pressure tank. Pressure tank was charged to 28PSI at install. No leaks anywhere around the pressure tank. A few weeks back we started noticing the pressure pulsing, meaning when the pressure dropped to 30 PSI it was more noticeable than it was previously. Pressure would build back up and the cycle would continue. Other than us being able to notice the drawdown more the system was operating normally. We noticed the switch clicking on/off quite rapidly one night. Checking it out I could see it drop to 30PSI, switch engaged pump, pressure built up to 50 and pressure switch would cut off pump. Now here is where is gets confusing for me. With no draw from anything in the house it was still cycling on/off every 30 seconds or so. I turned off the main input to the house to rule out a leak and it still kept cycling. Checking the air pressure in the tank greeted me with spewing water so I knew right away the diaphragm had given out. It is being replaced under warranty but was shipped 3 days ago and won't be here until next week. Now during all of this we still have water, just running the pump ragged but my question is this. Even with the diaphragm blown and no leaks in the house if the well is kicking on and filling up the pressure tank shouldn't the system stop cycle if there is no call for water? I mean if the well keeps kicking on / off the water the well is pumping has to go somewhere right? There is only one check valve in the setup that I know about and it is at the pump. They only recommended more check valves if vertical was more than 200 feet, it is only about 100 feet vertical. Run from the Well head to house is maybe 300 feet downhill. Once the tank comes in it will be replaced along with new switch, gauge and pressure relief. Thanks in advance for any help and I am sorry for the length.

 

[ThirdGenPump]

Shut power off to the system. Attach a hose to the pressure tank. Open it. Charge the tank with air. This will hopefully displace some of the water logging. Charge it to no more than 28 pounds and keep adding air till water stops coming out. If air starts coming out close the draw off and finish charging to 28psi. Turn the system back on. Because the diaphragm is bad you'll rapidly lose air again bu it should get you by till the new tanks in.

When there is no air in the system to hold water pressure the check may not be holding closed. If this does not resolve the issue next step is to pressure test the system to check for leaks, then figure out where it is leaking.

A 20gallon tank is too small for a 1 HP pump. You should add a cycle stop valve or go to a larger tank. That's not today's issue, but unresolved you'll significantly shorten the life of the pump and tank.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[douglasr]

Shut power off to the system. Attach a hose to the pressure tank. Open it. Charge the tank with air. This will hopefully displace some of the water logging. Charge it to no more than 28 pounds and keep adding air till water stops coming out. If air starts coming out close the draw off and finish charging to 28psi. Turn the system back on. Because the diaphragm is bad you'll rapidly lose air again bu it should get you by till the new tanks in.

When there is no air in the system to hold water pressure the check may not be holding closed. If this does not resolve the issue next step is to pressure test the system to check for leaks, then figure out where it is leaking.

A 20gallon tank is too small for a 1 HP pump. You should add a cycle stop valve or go to a larger tank. That's not today's issue, but unresolved you'll significantly shorten the life of the pump and tank.

Thank you for the quick response. I just started researching the Cycle Stop Valves but I like what I see so far. 50 PSI constant would be really nice and I like the idea of less start/stop cycles. Is there a formula for sizing the CSV? Also with the new 20 gallon tank coming in can I just introduce the CSV using the 20 gallon tank? I know it seems like over kill but that 6 gallons in the 20 gallon tank would be A LOT on reserve

 

[Reach4]

Do you have a submersible (down the hole) pump? If not, post a photo of the pump and the stuff around it. I think you are implying submersible, but I wanted to be sure.

Do that air stuff that ThirdGenPump suggested if you want to troubleshoot before the new tank arrives. If it still cycles with the house blocked off, a bad check valve or a hole in a pipe could cause that cycling.

 

[ThirdGenPump]

Thank you for the quick response. I just started researching the Cycle Stop Valves but I like what I see so far. 50 PSI constant would be really nice and I like the idea of less start/stop cycles. Is there a formula for sizing the CSV? Also with the new 20 gallon tank coming in can I just introduce the CSV using the 20 gallon tank? I know it seems like over kill but that 6 gallons in the 20 gallon tank would be A LOT on reserve

You can use a CSV with a 20gallon tank no problem. It's usually a pretty easy install. Most residential installs use a CSV1A. You need to know what pump you have and depth to water. Valveman will come through at some point, he can answer any CSV questions.

 

[douglasr]

Do you have a submersible (down the hole) pump? If not, post a photo of the pump and the stuff around it. I think you are implying submersible, but I wanted to be sure.

Do that air stuff that ThirdGenPump suggested if you want to troubleshoot before the new tank arrives. If it still cycles with the house blocked off, a bad check valve or a hole in a pipe could cause that cycling.

Yes submersible. Well Pump is 102 feet down. I do not recall the actual depth of the well though. Thanks. I will be testing the air stuff tomorrow.

 

[douglasr]

You can use a CSV with a 20gallon tank no problem. It's usually a pretty easy install. Most residential installs use a CSV1A. You need to know what pump you have and depth to water. Valveman will come through at some point, he can answer any CSV questions.

Awesome. My pump is a 1HP Hallmark and the actual water intake is at 102' down. Pump materials state 33GPM but list true to be 17.6GPM at 138' deep and 24.7GPM at 82' so I am thinking I sit closer to 19-20GPM at 102'. I am definitely leaning towards the CSV after much research last night. Only issue now is determining if I need a 1GPM bypass or 3GPM bypass. Our bypass usage would be toilet flushes and hand washing so I am thinking the 1GPM would be sufficient.

 

[Valveman]

Sorry, been sick. Just catching up. That 1HP, 33 GPM pump has a max head of 207' (89 PSI). Just to get to 60 PSI for the pressure switch shut off is the same as 138' of head. So if the water level in the well is any deeper than 69', that pump will burn up trying to reach 60 PSI, because it cannot do that. And that is too close for comfort even WITHOUT a CSV.

The CSV needs a little differential pressure to function properly. For the 1 GPM bypass in the CSV to actually give you 1 GPM, you need 110 PSI (254') of back pressure, which that pump cannot do. Even with the 3 GPM bypass you need 80 PSI back pressure just to get 1 GPM to bypass. The bypass rate has nothing to do with usage. It has to do with the amount of water needed to cool the pump/motor. 2HP and smaller only need 1 GPM, while 3HP and 5HP need 3 GPM for cooling.

So you can use the CSV with the 3 GPM bypass IF the water level in the well is less than 22' deep. The water level will have to be less than about 45' so that pump can reach 60 PSI even without a CSV. But even that is cutting it very close.

If you lower the pressure switch to 30/50, then that pump will work with a CSV (3 GPM bypass) if the water level is less 45', and without a CSV if the water level is less than 68' deep.

That is a high volume/low pressure pump, which is why you can find it so cheaply, as it is not a regular well pump. They work well when pumping from a cistern storage tank or from a well with a 10' static, but they don't work if the water level is very deep at all.

 

[douglasr]

Sorry, been sick. Just catching up. That 1HP, 33 GPM pump has a max head of 207' (89 PSI). Just to get to 60 PSI for the pressure switch shut off is the same as 138' of head. So if the water level in the well is any deeper than 69', that pump will burn up trying to reach 60 PSI, because it cannot do that. And that is too close for comfort even WITHOUT a CSV.

The CSV needs a little differential pressure to function properly. For the 1 GPM bypass in the CSV to actually give you 1 GPM, you need 110 PSI (254') of back pressure, which that pump cannot do. Even with the 3 GPM bypass you need 80 PSI back pressure just to get 1 GPM to bypass. The bypass rate has nothing to do with usage. It has to do with the amount of water needed to cool the pump/motor. 2HP and smaller only need 1 GPM, while 3HP and 5HP need 3 GPM for cooling.

So you can use the CSV with the 3 GPM bypass IF the water level in the well is less than 22' deep. The water level will have to be less than about 45' so that pump can reach 60 PSI even without a CSV. But even that is cutting it very close.

If you lower the pressure switch to 30/50, then that pump will work with a CSV (3 GPM bypass) if the water level is less 45', and without a CSV if the water level is less than 68' deep.

That is a high volume/low pressure pump, which is why you can find it so cheaply, as it is not a regular well pump. They work well when pumping from a cistern storage tank or from a well with a 10' static, but they don't work if the water level is very deep at all.

So I have a brand new 20 gallon pressure tank and 1GP CSV, 30/50 Pressure Switch and Relief Valve sitting here for install. But my pump will not be able to keep the back pressure needed for the CSV? So what pump do I need to replace it with? I want to do this right and not have to worry about it again for a while Thanks for all the information so far.

 

[Valveman]

So I have a brand new 20 gallon pressure tank and 1GP CSV, 30/50 Pressure Switch and Relief Valve sitting here for install. But my pump will not be able to keep the back pressure needed for the CSV? So what pump do I need to replace it with? I want to do this right and not have to worry about it again for a while Thanks for all the information so far.

It all depends on the pumping water level in the well. Set the CSV1A to hold a constant 45 PSI while running a hose or shower at about 3 GPM. Then when you close all the faucets, it should take about 1 minute to fill to 50 PSI and shut off. If the pump just cannot get to 50, then the water level is too low for this pump and 30/50 pressure setting. You can either turn the pressure switch down to 20/40 and the CSV1A to 35, or get a higher pressure pump. The 1 HP motor you have will work fine, you just need to find a 15 to 20 GPM pump end to put on that motor.

 

[douglasr]

I have the CSV125 40 PSI, 1GPM bypass non-adjustable model and a 30/50PSI Pressure Switch. From troubleshooting this system before I recall the pump was able to take it from 30PSI to 50PSI in around 30-45 seconds. I am going to confirm my well depth and water level tomorrow although I am not sure how to test well drawdown or if that is important. So assuming my pumping water level is much higher than my well pump is I should set the pressure in the pressure tank to 25PSI and leave the pressure switch at the default of 30/50? I would like to replace the pump with a higher pressure one as you recommend but will have to research that a little more or just replace the pump. I can just chalk it up as a not so expensive learning lesson Is it wise to even attempt to install the CSV right now or wait until I have the other components in place? My concern is that if I wait too long and just set it up as it was before with the 20 gallon (which is undersized for my 8 fixtures) that I risk damaging the pressure tank again. Again all the help is appreciated and I hope you have a great weekend.

 

[Valveman]

Yes 25 PSI air in the tank is good with a 30/50 switch. The only way you will know if the water level is too deep, is if after adding the CSV12540-1, the pump cannot reach 50 PSI and shut off. With such a low head pump you would be better off with a CSV12540-3. This valve is designed to allow 3 GPM to bypass with a normal pressure pump, so the 3 GPM bypass in this valve will still let through 1 GPM as needed with a low head pump like the 1HP, 33 GPM one you have. Be glad to swap it out for you if you would like.

It may work fine with the CSV12540-1, but the bypass will be less than 1/2 GPM with the low head pump. This is still plenty to keep the pump happy as long as it can reach 50 PSI and shut off in a minute or two. If it were me I would try it.

 

[douglasr]

So it looks like the pump itself has gone out as well. We were running it even with the low pressure in the tank so I know it was cycling a lot more and it looks like we pushed it too much. So with putting on the 40-3 CSV and the 20 Gallon Pressure tank what am I looking for in a new well pump to make this operate the best?

 

[Reach4]

So it looks like the pump itself has gone out as well. We were running it even with the low pressure in the tank so I know it was cycling a lot more and it looks like we pushed it too much. So with putting on the 40-3 CSV and the 20 Gallon Pressure tank what am I looking for in a new well pump to make this operate the best?

Do you have a reason to think that a 10 gpm pump would be inadequate for your house? It is for the majority of houses.

 

[douglasr]

Do you have a reason to think that a 10 gpm pump would be inadequate for your house? It is for the majority of houses.

I don't. I ordered the pump mainly of HP ratings and while the pump has worked great (for a short time ) I now realize it was not the best choice. That is what I am looking for now. Based on our usage 10GPM would be more than sufficient. Any recommendations?

Here is one I am looking at. Now the pump that was pulled when the 1HP was put in was a 1/2HP. I sadly did not grab any other specs but that pump had been there for roughly 20 years.


https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005VHRNX...8631-04e6afc17310&ie=UTF8&qid=1521594687&sr=3

 

[Reach4]

What is the distance from your house to the top of the water in the well? I suspect a 10 gpm 3/4 HP pump would be good.

The horizontal component of the run does not factor much into the calculations.

 

[Valveman]

Not knowing the actual pumping level in the well I would go with a 3/4HP in that 12 GPM series pump. That way it will still work up to 60 PSI even if the water level is close to 100' deep.

 

[Reach4]

I don't. I ordered the pump mainly of HP ratings

Have you noticed that higher gpm pumps for a given hp rating are usually cheaper? That is because they have fewer stages. Having more stages lets the pump add to the pressure with each stage to pump higher and/or with more pressure. You don't want to overdo it, but you want to match the pump to the situation.

 

[douglasr]

Have you noticed that higher gpm pumps for a given hp rating are usually cheaper? That is because they have fewer stages. Having more stages lets the pump add to the pressure with each stage to pump higher and/or with more pressure. You don't want to overdo it, but you want to match the pump to the situation.

Yeah. I made an uninformed and ultimately poor decision. So I was finally able to grab details from the well. 4" Casing, total depth 125', pump is at 96' and the depth to water is 32' from top of well head. The run from the well head to house is actually closer to 175' and is slightly downhill. Maybe 6'-7' of elevation change. 1" pipe through out. Better to go with the 3/4HP or 1/2HP? I know we pulled a 1/2 HP when we first had to replace it last year. I also feel a lot better with that much water in the well Thanks again for all the help guys.

 

[Valveman]

If you want to be able to use that water from deeper in the well you will need the 3/4HP.