Well Pump Diagnosis-Delayed start up

[KSoze]

Hello Well pump experts,

I am having an intermitent problem with my 330 foot deep well pump. When the controller clicks ON there is often a 5-20 second delay before the pump actually starts working and at that moment the pressure drops to zero. Then it "kicks in" and the pump comes on and the pressure rises as normal. I first tried cleaning the contacts on the controller switch but then the problem returned. Just replaced the switch and then problem returned.

When working, the pump seems to function great, but then every few weeks or so the problem returns. My guess is that it is a faulty electrical connection and not the pump itself. Pump is 3/4 HP submersible and is about 7 years old.

My question: Is it likely that my pump is dying or is it likely that it is just a faulty connection at the pump? I imagine the only way to know for sure is to pull the darn thing up which is a big project. Would it be wise to just replace the pump once I go to the trouble of pulling up 330 feet of line etc? Would it be wise to replace all of the wiring as the same time, or is the wiring something that should not "wear out"?

Thanks in advance for any insight. I was preparing to pull up the system today (never have before) but now after reading many posts here I am hesitant before I know about troubleshootong this problem.

 

[KSoze]

Extra info, if this helps: I have been able to test the voltage at the controller at the moment when the delay happens and it seems that 220 Volts are there.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[LLigetfa]

If your pressure drops suddenly to zero then you also have a waterlogged tank.

 

[KSoze]

LLigetfa:
Thanks for the reply. Please explain! Why do you think I have a waterlogged tank and what exactly does that mean?

To Clarify pressure drops to zero for a few seconds then goes right back to "normal" once the pump kicks on. And if you are correct what do I need to do to unwaterlog my tank, add air?

 

[Valveman]

I see about three possibilities. The nipple the pressure switch is attached to could be clogged. Check to see if you have 230V going down to the pump (pump side of pressure switch) when the delay is happening. If you have voltage on the pump side of the switch, your nipple is not clogged.

You could have a bad check valve or a hole in the pipe down hole. This would cause a delay while waiting for the water to get to the surface. But this usually causes air in the system, which you did not mention.

Last it could be a bad motor. Submersible pumps only last and average of 7 years, and yours is 7 years old. The delay would not always be the same amount of time, because you are simply waiting on an automatic overload in the motor to reset. If you have voltage on the pump side of the pressure switch, yet there is no current (amp reading) then the overload has to cool for a little before the pump will start. The overload is tripping because you have cycled the pump the proper number of times to destroy it in 7 years as the pump manufacturer planned. I am afraid you are going to need a new motor, but check the amp draw to know for sure.

 

[LLigetfa]

Your pressure tank should have enough reserve to not drop to 0 PSI. If the air precharge is cut too fine on a bladder tank, or air was lost to waterlogging of a hydro-pnuematic tank, the reserve is gone. I don't recall you mentioning what kind of tank you have.

What happens if you raise the cut-in setting on the switch a few PSI? As a test you can nudge the plate (under the big spring) on the switch to make it cut-in sooner. Just make sure you keep your fingers away from the electrical contacts.

Test the pump delay with an ammeter as valveman suggests, not a voltmeter.

 

[KSoze]

Thanks again for the input,

I did get to check the voltage one time and I think it showed 230 (or 220?) at the switch when the delay occured. The problem is getting down to the basement to check. The delay usually lasts 10-20 seconds so when the water cuts out it takes a mad scamble to get down to the switch to check. One time I got lucky being down there to test it.

Valveman: I am afraid that your analysis is probably right. The nipple looked clear when I replaced the switch and when it reaches the low pressure point (40psi) the switch engages and clicks shut so I think that means it is getting the message OK.
But, I didn't expect the pump to delay like this if it was dying. Last 2 times my pump died it just, well, died, and that was it. This intermitent delay happened about 20 times a few months ago then stopped. Then started again, and as I said I just replaced the switch, and it has only happened twice in 3 weeks with the new switch. Is this common for a well pump to act like this when they are on their "deathbed"?

There is never a good convenient time to run out of water, but I was hoping to delay the big expence of a full replacement if I don't have to.

Is there any likelyhood that it could be wiring or electrical connection. Is it posssible that one of the "shrinkwrap" connections is not sealed or something, or some other prob with the wires going down?

I ask this because if I do just replace the pump now, to avoid a future emergency replacemnet, would it make sense to change out the wires also while I'm at it with 330 feet of hose etc, on my lawn?

Still trying to decide if it is worth replacing everything now (I still have water!) or should I just wait until the thing finally dies and then the decision is made for me by fate.

 

[Valveman]

You are going to need an amp reading when this is happening. If the motor is pulling the correct amps, yet no water is coming up, you probably have a hole in the drop pipe. If the motor is not pulling any amps after the switch closes, then the overload is tripped and resets itself in a short time. A bad splice will not usually work sometimes and sometimes not. So I don't think it is a bad electrical connection.

 

[LLigetfa]

The problem is getting down to the basement to check. The delay usually lasts 10-20 seconds so when the water cuts out it takes a mad scamble to get down to the switch to check. One time I got lucky being down there to test it...

Why do you have to wait for a fortuitous moment? Can you not repeat the symptoms by opening the drain on the tank?

 

[KSoze]

Thank you both for the replies.

Valveman: I will have to get an amp meter to have handy for when this starts happening again.

LLigetfa: I can not induce the delay. Maybe I wasn't clear when I described the problem above. With normal usage the pressure dops until it hits 40 and then the pump kicks on (duh). When the problem occurs the switch closes, makes contact and then the gage drops to zero for those few seconds (but I imagine that there is actually still pressure in the tank) and then silence and then you can hear the pump start up and the pressure gage is right back at about 38 and rising. So the system can detect the drop in pressure just fine, and most times, especially lately, it kicks on fine, but intermittenly there is the described delay.

How will draining the tank help induce the intermittent delay in the pump start up?

 

[LLigetfa]

How will draining the tank help induce the intermittent delay in the pump start up?

When you open the drain, the pressure drops to the point where the pump starts. You can watch the pressure drop to see if it dives suddenly. You can watch the pressure to see how it responds to the pump start and time how long it takes to raise the pressure to the cut-off point. You can measure the amps at the moment the pump starts.

When the controller clicks ON there is often a 5-20 second delay before the pump actually starts working and at that moment the pressure drops to zero.

I took your "often" to mean reproducible.

 

[KSoze]

I took your "often" to mean reproducible.

OK,Yeah I can see that implication. A few weeks ago it was doing the delay 6-7 times a day. Of course now that I am trying to figure this out it has worked fine (knock wood :-0). When the problem started a few months ago the same thing happened, it did it regularly for days and days and then just stopped for a few months.

Wondering if the level of the water table could possibly have an effect here (its must be quite high now), but I am not sure how that would make any sense.

 

[Valveman]

Because it is not consistent, I am afraid it is the overload in the motor tripping.

 

[KSoze]

Because it is not consistent, I am afraid it is the overload in the motor tripping.

Meaning....my motor is shot and replace it? Or just be prepared for it to die soon?

 

[Valveman]

It is possible that you have a bad start cap or relay. But if that is not the case then it is probably the motor. Too much cycling on and off usually casues this problem.

 

[LLigetfa]

Have you tested the drawdown on the tank? Have you timed how long it takes to pump it back up?

Does the delay-start happen when there is excessive pump use? Does the pump have a start wire or a control box?

What size well casing? Do you know if your pump 330 feet down is top fed? A top fed pump without a sleeve may not get enough cooling flow past the motor.

 

[DonL]

Like valveman was saying, If your pump uses a Capacitor, you could have a bad one.


DonL

 

[KSoze]

Thanks again all for the replies.

I am not sure if there is a pattern as to when the problem happens. I am watching out for it when it is under high use. (so far still no problems lately)

Also, to answer the other questions above: I have not timed the tank drawdown and I don't know if it is top fed.