Well Pump Check Valve, Air in the Lines, or something else?

[Lou N]

All,

A little background: we are on a well and in the last six months or so we sometimes get air exiting from our upstairs faucet or toilet first thing in the morning. A few months ago I replaced the hot water heater and installed a new sink in the basement with Liberty Pump to drain the sink (the pump is vented to the atmosphere, but not all the way through the roof, no smells or issues).

Now the cold water line for the washer on the main floor is either not running or water hammering unless I move the on/off valve about halfway closed.

So far I have checked the well tank bladder, and replaced the water inlet solenoid on the washer both had no effect on the cold water line issue.

So I'm looking for possible ideas on what the problem(s) might be?

1. If the check valve in the well is going bad what would be the symptoms and can I check/diagnose (short of having the pump pulled)?

2. Could there still be trapped air in the lines from my plumbing work after months?

3. Could the problem with the washer and the air in the pipes be related?

I'm going to pull the cold water hose on the washer today to see if it might be clogged (seems unlikely).

Sorry for the long post, thanks in advance for any suggestions.
Lou

 

[Reach4]

Do you have a backwashing filter and/or softener?

You said "pump pulled" so you have a submersible pump.

Now the cold water line for the washer on the main floor is either not running or water hammering unless I move the on/off valve about halfway closed.

Weird. For water hammer (which is a single bang when a valve closes), you can add a water hammer arrestor or two. However that "not running" bit is weird. You mean no cold water goes into the washer at those times?

1. If the check valve in the well is going bad what would be the symptoms and can I check/diagnose (short of having the pump pulled)?

Pump would cycle, even if you are not using water.

2. Could there still be trapped air in the lines from my plumbing work after months?

Probably not, and that would not cause water hammer anyway.

3. Could the problem with the washer and the air in the pipes be related?

No.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Lou N]

Weird. For water hammer (which is a single bang when a valve closes), you can add a water hammer arrestor or two. However that "not running" bit is weird. You mean no cold water goes into the washer at those times?

Correct, no water coming in and sometimes a rapid series of knocks, like a machine gun, as opposed to a single loud knock. Weird because this hasn't been a issue for the last two years that we have been here.

Pump would cycle, even if you are not using water.

Ok, the pump is not cycling abnormally as far as I can tell.

Do you have a backwashing filter and/or softener?
You said "pump pulled" so you have a submersible pump.

Yes, we have a submersible pump and a water softener, I don't believe we have a backwashing filter. Thanks for the replies...

 

[Reach4]

Correct, no water coming in and sometimes a rapid series of knocks, like a machine gun, as opposed to a single loud knock. Weird because this hasn't been a issue for the last two years that we have been here.

I would suspect some obstruction that moves some. Maybe even the problem could be the valve that the WM cold hooks to. I am not a plumber.

Yes, we have a submersible pump and a water softener,

The air check valve in your brine tank could be the cause of the air. When you see air, check to see if the softener regenerated the previous night.

If your brine line is translucent, you could do a regen, and watch if the brine line gets full of air around 15 minutes or so into the brine draw cycle. The air check valve's job is to shut when the brine has been sucked in, to prevent sucking air. You can also suck air if the brine line leaks. The leak may be small enough that the brine fill does not leak noticeable liquid, but big enough to admit air.

 

[Lou N]

would suspect some obstruction that moves some. Maybe even the problem could be the valve that the WM cold hooks to. I am not a plumber

I think it's a partially clogged hose. I'll get some new ones tomorrow and see if that helps. As for the air in the line issue, I'll mess with the regen tomorrow and see what comes of that. Brush hog just broke down, so I'm done (or trying to ) fix things for today!

 

[Reach4]

I think it's a partially clogged hose. I'll get some new ones tomorrow and see if that helps.

If you moved the cold hose to the hot tap, and then did a cold wash, you could test for that.

 

[Cacher_Chick]

It is common for washer inlet valves to have screens on them which can become plugged.

 

[Lou N]

All,

Thought I would post an update: I replaced the solenoid valves on the washer, but the problem continued, so I replaced the hoses, still having problems with water flow and air in the line.

Next I replaced the check valve and piping in the water softener brine tank because the problem definitely seems related to the regeneration cycle on the resin tank.

Unfortunately that didn't work and we are still getting a lot of air in the plumbing lines the morning after a regen cycle. I'm sure that's what's causing the issue with the washer, it's air locked.

So any suggestions? I'm at a loss as what to do next...

Thanks

 

[Reach4]

Recap your symptoms.

 

[Lou N]

Air in the plumbing after a water softener regeneration.

I'm wondering if a bad o-ring or worn out brine injector could be the issue? The softener uses a Fleck 5600 power head.

 

[Reach4]

Air in the plumbing after a water softener regeneration.

Typically a bad air check valve in the brine tank, but it could be a small leak in the path toward the air check valve. I guess a seal could do that too.

If you have a translucent brine line, you may be able to see air bubbles appear early in the brine draw, or see air fill the line when the brine has been drawn.

With the brine sucked out, you could turn off the water. Then undo the brine line connection at the softener. Suck on the line. You should be able to draw a vacuum.

 

[Lou N]

Definitely getting air in the brine line during the rinse cycle. Sounds like the leak is in the control head, could it be a bad brine injector (seal)?

The air check valve is brand new, so I don't think it's that...

 

[Reach4]

Definitely getting air in the brine line during the rinse cycle. Sounds like the leak is in the control head, could it be a bad brine injector (seal)?

The air check valve is brand new, so I don't think it's that...

In your hypothesis, how does air get in?

What softener do you have?

 

[Lou N]

I have narrowed down the air leak, which shows up as air in the brine line, to the time after the brine well is empty and the time when the cam kicks off the brine injector (start of the rinse cycle). Sounds like the leak is coming from the control head area.

The check valve has been replaced and appears to be sealing and all of the connections to the brine line are tight (Teflon taped) with no apparent leaks (soapy water test).

Is it possible that the brine injector has developed a leak?

Sorry for the multiple e-mails, just trying to narrow this issue down.

Regards,
Lou

 

[Reach4]

I have narrowed down the air leak, which shows up as air in the brine line, to the time after the brine well is empty and the time when the cam kicks off the brine injector (start of the rinse cycle). Sounds like the leak is coming from the control head area.

You say that you can hear a hissing? Put shaving foam on the leak candidates, and see which sucks in the foam.

What softener do you have?

 

[Lou N]

The water softener is a Fleck 5600.

 

[Reach4]

Is the media tank next to the brine tank the softener? I see it has a translucent brine line. I guess you see air there. There could be a leak where the brine tube hits the valve, but I don't think that would bring air into the brine line.

Here is an experiment: When the air sound or appearance starts, try adding another 1/2 gallon of water to the brine tank. If the hissing stops for a minute or so, I suspect that the air check valve in the brine tank was what was admitting the air.