Well overflowing (artesian?) Will it freeze?

[nplayle]

Hi,

I just bought a new house out in rural Manitoba. It has a well, and the realtor told me it was a hundred feet deep or so. It has a jet pump in the basement, so fat chance of that (so I thought).

Anyways, I moved in last week and noticed there was a lot of air in the pipes, and spitting through the taps. I listened and you can hear the jet pump is sucking air in. I figured it might be a leaky pitless adapter, so I set out to replace the o ring there.

It took me awhile to get the existing well cap off (it looks original) and when I broke the seal there was lots of hissing and finally bubbling water. Anyways, I got the cap off and the water is right at the top of the well, and overflowing slowly (maybe 1 cup/min). Based on my searching it's an artesian well. We didn't have anything like that where I grew up, usually the water was very far down (like 100+ft). There seems to be some odourless gas coming from the water as well, not sure what it is. Maybe air? I think I solved the mystery of what the pump is sucking in, not sure how to solve it though.

But this has given me a new worry. Will this water at the top of the pipe freeze? It gets quite cold here, I'd expect weeks of -20 to -30deg C. There's no house around the well to keep it warm. I almost wonder if the air build up in the top kept the water low enough that it never froze. There is a pitless adapter down below the frost line, so no worries there, I'm just worried it will freeze and bust the casing.

I'm waiting to hear back from a local well company, but would like to hear other opinions too.

Thanks!
Nick

 

[Reach4]

I am not a pro. I would use a lit propane torch at arms length to see if the gas ignited. Maybe at night in case the fires are small and fleeting. You may be more cautious and smarter than I in this case.

So anyway, what are the gas possibilities. If it were methane, I would have expected it to burn. Carbon Dioxide? Maybe ask one or two of your new neighbors.

I almost wonder if the air build up in the top kept the water low enough that it never froze.

Interesting idea, but usually well caps are vented; there is a screen to keep bugs out. Is yours vented?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Boycedrilling]

FORGET THE PROPANE TORCH IDEA.

I've never been to Anola, but I did spend a winter in Winnipeg back in the '70's. I know how cold it can get there. -20 degrees Fahrenheit is just a normal day. I think it did get down to -42 or so the winter I was there. The busses still kept running though.

Everybody thinks they want an artesian well until they actually have one. Freezing is one of the problems. Just like a dog's bowl of water will freeze outside, so will your water above the frost line, I've even had the water in the drop pipe freeze in a well with a 600 ft static level. It was zero degrees out and the well was sucking air in.

Your local well and pump contractor should be able to take care of you. The top of the well needs to be insulated and heated or a packer installed to seal the water level lower in the well.

There are methods to release entrained gasses from both the well casing and your water pipes. These gasses may or may not be flammable and/or dangerous to breath. There have been cases in Saskatchewan among other places, of people being killed by a build up of gasses inside of a well house. Creating a IDLH atmosphere. Not just the first person in the well, house, but the person that tried to rescue them also. Talk to your pump guy, not somebody on the internet that may or may not actually know what they are suggesting, and the implications and liabilities of their suggestions.

 

[Craigpump]

I'm with Boyce, using a torch is a horrible idea, but that's the kind of advice you get from someone who has no experience.

The well cap you have there is an old Monitor cap, they were not sealed and at least in Connecticut don't meet current code. You can put a code compliant vented well cap on, they run about $35.00. They have screens in them so the well can breathe but not let insects in.

I've got a customer whose well artesians very slowly, we had to thaw the 2' ice cube in the casing one winter to change his pump. Now he wraps fiberglass insulation around it and covers that with a large fiberglass fake rock for winter time freeze protection.

 

[Valveman]

I am not familiar with artesian wells or climate that cold. But I would think if you vent the well cap water will continue to flow out the vent. If it continues to flow at a fairly good rate, and you have a place to dump the excess water, I also do not think it would freeze. Interesting problem. Local professional advice is the best way to go if you can find it. I am sure the local guys have seen this before.

 

[Reach4]

FORGET THE PROPANE TORCH IDEA.

The gas is spitting out of the indoor taps. Are you seriously concerned that the outdoor well casing could burst into flames or worse?

 

[Craigpump]

The gas is spitting out of the indoor taps. Are you seriously concerned that the outdoor well casing could burst into flames or worse?

You've obviously never seen what happens when a lit propane torch and natural gas meet.

Sure, it could be an inert gas, but why take that chance?

 

[Craigpump]

I am not familiar with artesian wells or climate that cold. But I would think if you vent the well cap water will continue to flow out the vent. If it continues to flow at a fairly good rate, and you have a place to dump the excess water, I also do not think it would freeze. Interesting problem. Local professional advice is the best way to go if you can find it. I am sure the local guys have seen this before.

If the well flow is fast enough, it won't freeze, but a well that just trickles will freeze especially if it's windy. Yeah, and it's a pain to thaw. We use a wand type torch hooked to a 20 lb propane tank.

 

[Reach4]

You've obviously never seen what happens when a lit propane torch and natural gas meet.

I have done a match to an inverted small bottle filled on purpose with natural gas. Not too impressive. I have done it to hydrogen. POP! That is impressive.

 

[Craigpump]

What if the op's well made a serious amount of flammable gas and the conditions were such that the gas accumulated close to the ground and when he lit his torch, he got seriously burned? Of course you're at home so it won't be of any real consequence to you....

There's more to this business than sitting at your computer doing research and then handing out advice based on what you've seen done to your private water well, read online or seen on YouTube. Valveman, BoyceDrilling, myself and others have given our lives to this trade, we live, breathe and eat this business, we share our expertise freely and we take it seriously. We err on the side of personal saftey because we know what can happen. My feeling is, that until YOU spend significant time in the field and get licensed for this type of work you shouldn't be handing out advice to unsuspecting DIYers looking for help from those who are qualified water well professionals.

 

[MACPLUMB]

If the well flow is fast enough, it won't freeze, but a well that just trickles will freeze especially if it's windy. Yeah, and it's a pain to thaw. We use a wand type torch hooked to a 20 lb propane tank.

I don't think it will flow faster then Niagara Falls which routinely freezes in the winter time,

 

[Reach4]

What if the op's well made a serious amount of flammable gas and the conditions were such that the gas accumulated close to the ground and when he lit his torch, he got seriously burned? Of course you're at home so it won't be of any real consequence to you....

I am not claiming to speak with authority. I said what I would do.

Small bubbles. I cannot think enough gas could accumulate for a significant accumulation. Hydrogen and methane both rise. CO2 don't burn. Propane? I guess, but from a well that seems unlikely. I think an ignition is improbable, but if there were one, IMO it would be a lot better outside vs inside.

 

[Traveller]

Hydrogen sulphide (H2S) - heavier than air and very flammable.

Flammable range 4.3-46%.

 

[nplayle]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the replies. The local guy got back to me. He said that he knows of a few wells in the area that are similar (overflow when left open) and that they don't usually do anything special for them as far as heating or venting goes. He said that for PVC cased wells they may put some styrofoam in the casing so the styrofoam will get crushed instead of the casing.

I realise I forgot to mention the bubbling / air to him so I might call him next week and get clarification on that. I don't think it's CO2 because it didn't smell. Could be methane, but I'm not about to light it on fire to test. Maybe after a few beers though.

I think I'll try and find some insulation to put around it just for my peace of mind though.

Craigpump, you said you had to thaw a cube at the top of a well. Have you ever seen a casing crack due to ice at the top or am I worrying about nothing?

 

[Traveller]

I feel I am missing something here. If the caps are vented, why do these wells only overflow if the cap is left off?

 

[nplayle]

The cap that was on the well and the one that I replaced it with are both sealed. No air / water can get in or out. It seems like there may be vented caps but that would require running a drain line from the well as well, and I'm not sure there's time for that before winter hits here, or if it's necessary since the flow can be stopped with a seal?