Well and Cycle stop valve suggestions needed

[TrainWreck]

I was hoping for some advice on my well setup and which CSV psi I should buy for my home

:WELL 235' pump to pitless
:GOULDS 7GS07 pump w/ 3/4 HP franklin 3 wire
:WELLMATE WM12 set at 35 psi
:40/60 PRESSURE SWITCH SETTING
EERLESS indirect h20 tank
:1 1/4" or 1" black poly pipe

The well water is 80 foot below the top of the well casing when off and it sits up on a hill about 30 feet higher than my house and it is 200 foot away from the house with 1 1/4" or 1" poly pipe run. The wellmate on the first floor that is set at 35 psi with a 40/60 switch and has about a 6 gallon drawdown even though the manual says it's 12 gallons, I think I measured right.

I have 2 kitchens 2 dishwashers 2 washers and 3 full baths.
1st: 1 kit, 1 dish and 1 bath on the same level as the wellmate
2nd: 1 kit, 1 dish, 1 wash and 1 bath on the 2nd floor
3rd: 1 bath

Is the pump adequate for my needs?
Are my setting ok ?
Can I lower the pressure ?
What size (psi) CSV should I get?
With the CSV do I need to change any settings

 

[Bob NH]

If this is a household where both dishwashers and two bathrooms may be used simultaneously, the 7 GPM pump is marginal. However, you can probably get by with it by using a larger storage tank.

Your 7GS07 should produce about 8 to 9 GPM at 40 psi at your well conditions. A CSV can't do anything to increase capacity. You need pressurized storage for that. It will produce 6 to 7 GPM at 70 psi, depending on drawdown in the well.

I would be putting in another bladder tank in parallel with your existing tank. I would set it up to provide more drawdown at 40 psi by the following settings.

1. Add an 80 gallon actual volume bladder tank in parallel with the existing tank.

2. Set the pressure switch operating points at 15 psi differential with start stop points in the range of 50/65 or 55/70.

3. Pressurize the bladder tanks to about 38 to 40 psi when empty.

You would have plenty of drawdown between the switch points to keep your pump cycles to at least 1.5 minutes.

If you had more demand, you would be able to draw down the tanks to provide more capacity while the pump is delivering about 9 GPM at 40 psi.

If you want a CSV to reduce cycles at the high end, it won't hurt, but you will still have the added capacity that you will probably need.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[TrainWreck]

If this is a household where both dishwashers and two bathrooms may be used simultaneously, the 7 GPM pump is marginal. However, you can probably get by with it by using a larger storage tank.

Your 7GS07 should produce about 8 to 9 GPM at 40 psi at your well conditions. A CSV can't do anything to increase capacity. You need pressurized storage for that. It will produce 6 to 7 GPM at 70 psi, depending on drawdown in the well.

Yes I suppose both dishwasher could be used at the same time I know two showers are used at the same time everyday but never showers and dishwasher all at the same time if that is what you mean just looking for a clarification here.
I will say that we haven't had a water supply or pressure problem it the house except for a minor pressure loss in the third floor shower when someone else runs another shower.

Twice in 3 years we have had a problem with the well 3 years ago the pump motor burned up from lighting??We had a big storm, than the wire burned up recently it was reused from the first incident? just a bad move on my part I hope It isn't the prelude to another problem. I replaced all the wire with new wire this time

Would it make more sense to replace the old pump (build in 89) with a new pump something in the 10 or 13 gallon range if so does anyone have any suggestion on pumps? I know to stay away from sears and Lowe's.
Goulds and Jacuzzi seem to be the best choices.
As far as replacing the pump I'm getting good at pulling that sucker out so that isn't a issue I use a pulley and a lawn tractor!!1

Jeff

 

[Valveman]

I do not agree that pressurized storage is a good way to handle peak demands which are higher than peak GPM of the pump. In Murphy's house, which I and almost everyone else lives in, the pressure will inevitably be at 41 PSI with a 40/60 pressure switch when the peak demand happens. This means that your tank is effectively empty and the only water you will get is from the pump. If you lower the air pressure in the tank, it will only delay the bladder hitting the bottom by a minute or so. Lowering the air pressure, or decreasing the bandwidth between on and off, also reduces the available draw down from the tank, so the tank actually holds less water and causes more cycling. Pressurized storage can only help with peak demands for a few minutes, even if you are lucky enough for the tank to be full when the peak demand happens. Water stored before the pump (storage tank or in the well) is always available for peak demands. Water stored after the pump (pressure tanks) may not be there when you need it. So if you ever run low on pressure from the 7GS07, and your well will produce more GPM, then a larger pump is the best way to handle demands more than 7 GPM. With the small amount of draw down you are getting from the WM12, the CSV will reduce the number of cycles considerably. With the CSV you will still get 2 or 3 minutes of run time without adding another tank So if the pressure is not good and you must spend more money, spend it on a larger pump not another tank. Your pump is set at 235' and the water level is 80' so you have a lot of stored water in the well. Even without knowing the recharge rate or ID of the well, I can tell that you would be able to pump at least 10 GPM for 15 minutes without problem. It would take about 6 of the 80 gallon tanks to store this much water, and then again they would probably be empty when you needed the stored water. If you decide you even need a larger pump, and I am not sure you do, use a 10GS10 and you will have about 12 GPM available for peak demands. With either pump I would use the CSV160 with is set at 60 PSI, or use the CSV1Z witch is adjustable. With a two story house I would raise my pressure switch setting to 50/70, put 45 PSI air in the tank, and set the CSV for 60 PSI. If you have poly pipe before the CSV it will see 142 PSI. You need at least 160 class pipe and doesn't hurt to double clamp the insert fittings.

 

[John_NC]

I'm no pro but going through the same process

If your well produces enough gpm I would consider a constant pressure pump. It would eliminate the need for a large pressure tank.

These tanks get costly. If your well produces at least 5 gpm at that depth, you may have a candidate for this type of system.

A CSV is basically a pressure restriction valve and it's main function is to reduce short cycling of your pump with the added benefit of maintaining a more consistent pressure in the system. (at the lower cut-on pressure by the way)

In my research into CSVs, one drawback they don't advertise is the 25 psi friction loss across the valve. Also you want to be sure the pressure differential from the well side (high pressure) to the house side (lower pressure) is no greater than 125 psi.

John

 

[Valveman]

The CSV1 recommended only has 1 PSI friction loss at 10 GPM. The CSV1Z does have 25 PSI friction loss and should only be used on pumps that are larger than the need. With the 7GS07 or the 10GS10 you will get about 2 GPM more with the CSV160 than with the CSV1Z. If you pull the water level down to 235', your not pumping enough water for friction loss to make any difference anyway. I already did the differential pressure calculation, the 7GS07 will have 82 PSI and the 10GS10 will have 74 PSI differential. Maximum 142 inlet pressure is no problem as long as your pipe is 160 class or better. What is not advertised is that constant pressure pumps are computer operated, give off stray voltage, don't last very long, and let the pump companies make a lot of money.

 

[TrainWreck]

I'm not really having any problems with my water pressure even up on the third floor, just some minor fluctuations.And I think I measure the tank drawdown incorrectly the original pressure setting was 25 psi in the bladder

I went out and bought a 50psi CSV on the advice of the plumbing supply house I guess I was a little to impatient.
I installed it without and problems and now I can hardly notice any fluctuation it the water pressure even with two showers running.Is there something I should change as far as my settings are concerned, like tank pressure, pumptrol setting 40/60

The install manual says to have it run 2 min after complete water close off but from where do I start timing the two minutes? I don't under stand the procedure. Do I start from as soon as the pump starts or when I close off the valve and no water is moving? If I run a outside hose bib full out the pump still builds pressure until it reaches the 50psi than throttles back and the pump will run until I shut the hose bib off??? does that seem right?? While the CSV is throttling at 50 psi with the pump running do I than shut the hose off and than start the timing for two min from there?

Great site a very helpful thanks

Jeff

 

[TrainWreck]

Just to clarify my house in down hill 200 feet away and about 20 feet lower than the top of well casing.
The well pump is set at 235' and the water level is measured from the top of the well casing to the water with the pump off is 80 feet and the pitless connector is 8 foot down in the casing.
I could take a pumping water level measurement if that will help.

And I would like to stay away from constant pressure pumps with there computer controls I work as a industrial electrician and they do work and work well but when the power goes out you can be screwed.I want water and generator power will keep a standard well running fine with no real generator voltage fluctuation issues

K.I.S.S is my motto the CSV seams to fall under the simple part of the rule it needs no power or fancy controls.

Jeff

 

[Valveman]

Excellent, you can already see that the CSV has done away with the pressure fluctuations. Absolutely nothing wrong with your set up. Your well being 20' higher than the house will give you 10 PSI more at the house than the well so a 50 PSI CSV is perfect. If your WM12 tank is holding more than 6 gallons of draw down, it may be taking a little long to get to 60 PSI when not using any water. Start timing after the pressure is up to 50 PSI and you close the hose. If it takes longer than 3 minutes to reach 60 PSI, just loosen counterclockwise on the large adjuster in the pressure switch until the pump goes off. Be careful, it is 240 volt in there, or turn the power off after 3 minutes and adjust the switch until it opens while the power is off. Switch setting may turn out to be 36/56 or something close. Once the switch is set, make sure there is about 5 PSI less air in the tank than the start setting of the pump. Check air pressure when power is off and tank is drained. You are right to keep it simple. Simple is dependable. The more computerized or complicated a system, the less likely water will come out when you open a faucet. The CSV was invented to replace complicated and undependable variable speed pumps. Equipment does not have to be computerized to be “High Techâ€. Real “High Tech†means doing more with less, in other words CSV. You’re an electrician so you know what I mean. Also, Generator + VFD = Problems. Generator + CSV = No Problem. Please come back in a few days and let us know if you can tell the difference the CSV has made.

 

[TrainWreck]

Be careful, it is 240 volt in there.

LOL I can't even begin to tell you how many times I've been zapped.Once so bad ,I crossed phases on the line side of a panel in a basement on a wet just poured concrete floor. My coworkers found me much later layed out on the floor out cold they thought I was dead. I lost a good screw driver that day I'll tell ya!!!

LOOK at all the pretty colors LOL

jef

 

[Valveman]

Yeah I learned the hard way too. I always try to check things with a volt meter first but, I always stick a screwdriver between the hot leg and the case before I touch anything. Got quite a collection of melted screwdrivers and have been temporarily blinded by the light several times. Still better than getting layed out and peeing your pants which I have also done a few times. Those contacts in a pressure switch are so close to the adjustment screw that anything other than a 3/8 nut driver and your going to cause a spark.

 

[TrainWreck]

I have lived in a house with street pressure water for 21 years than moved to my present house on well water I could always tell where and when the pressure switch closed when I ran the water.

But now I would have to say with the CSV installed it runs as close to street like water pressure coming off a well as anyone could possibly want!!! You only feel the pressure drop once and than it is just a constant pressure with a steady flow. My family loves the new pressure system because you can run two showers and still flush the john with no chilling, burning or major pressure loss issues.
I'm sure it has to be set up right with water availability, pump max pressure, pump continuous pressure, proper CSV psi, water storage tank size and water usage in a fine balancing act to achieve the same effect as I have, but if I can achieve it anyone can with alittle help.
I got great help here ,the supply house and from CSV themselves and maybe alittle luck tossed in for good measure.

Thanks

 

[Speedbump]

Great thread! With a happy ending.

This is what I carry in my tool kit along with the usual digital volt/ohm meter. It has saved me many times and is handy if you want to manually close/open the switch points.

bob...

 

[TrainWreck]

I usually use the lick your fingers and than touch the wire if it hurts don't touch that wire no more!!

Ha Ha, no one can call me stupid, I've used the above method many many times and it always works perfectly for me. That's why my momma says I'm a fast learner.

disclaimer: This is a joke please do not use the above method, anyone using the above method does so at their own risk and said joke teller shall not in anyway be held responsible for any said damages to oneself or persons close to oneself as you are thrashing about in pain.

LOL

Jeff

 

[Rancher]

This works better if you put your foot in a puddle on the floor/ground, previously treated with rock salt, and then use your tounge to test for voltage, kind of like the 9 volt battery trick, however it's more permanent.

Rancher