WeilMclain Ultra 155 - Banging Noise when Honeywell Zone valve is closed.

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lordofthering

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Hi,
Myself have replaced my existing old Wei Mclain UHE Two boiler/Indirect hot water system with new Two Weil-Mclain Ultra 155 which controls 13 baseboard Zones and 1 Indirect Hot water Heater zone using LEAD and SLAVE setup. LEAD is primary source and SLAVE will kick off if LEAD is running more than 10 Minutes to support heating demand.

Since i have installed new system, I am getting banging noise when one of the zone is closed and I cannot figure out what is the root cause of the issue and what I can do to troubleshoot to find out root cause so I can remediate
System uses the Taco 0014 for Secondary(Black) and 007E for Primary Circulator pump(Green)

I have attached actual picture as well as Weil Mclain diagram which I followed for you to understand how it is setup
To avoid extra pressure from Primary Pump, i installed Differential Pressure By Pass Valve shown in separate picture later in stage but I am having same issue.

Can someone please help me to figure out to nail down this issue. Noise seems to be coming close to room where baseboard heaters located. Noise is not coming from baseboard heater, it is pipe noise. ?

Note: I have made sure there is no air in any of the zone

My guess is Boiler pump Taco 0014 is high powered on return line causing too much suction when zone valve is closing
 

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John Gayewski

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The pump should be pumping away from the expansion tank and be on the supply side of the system. But that's not your problem.

Your problem is the zone valve needs repaired. It's slamming shut. I believe there is an internal spring meant to keep this from happening. It's a fairly common failure.
 

Fitter30

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Can't tell where all the piping is going. Piping diagram would be nice. Zone valve is the flow direction same as flow? Flow valve backward slam shut. What type of check valve is on boiler piping? How did u pick your boiler pumps? What is the spec on head and gpm through boiler 0014 pump seems big. 13 zones on 007 pump?
 

lordofthering

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The pump should be pumping away from the expansion tank and be on the supply side of the system. But that's not your problem.

Your problem is the zone valve needs repaired. It's slamming shut. I believe there is an internal spring meant to keep this from happening. It's a fairly common failure.
I have tried that option but it did not resolve issue and it is causing given zone over heating since it is not fully closing zone due to one of the spring is removed.

What happens when water is flowing in loop for one zone and from source of water is closed by zone valve and at the end system circulator is still pulling water ? Does it create banging noise ? If yes what point it will create noise ?

I have attached exact piping diagram for better understanding. Note Zone valves are installed at Supply side after Primary pump, it is HoneyWell Normally closed zone valves.
 

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John Gayewski

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So you tried pulling a spring but didn't think it was relevant? You give all the info except the important part where you already tried modifying the zone valve? Do you think you should include that before you let people start to help?

Your fix is a late night version of the right fix.

A delta p pump would also fix it.
 

lordofthering

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Can't tell where all the piping is going. Piping diagram would be nice. Zone valve is the flow direction same as flow? Flow valve backward slam shut. What type of check valve is on boiler piping? How did u pick your boiler pumps? What is the spec on head and gpm through boiler 0014 pump seems big. 13 zones on 007 pump?
1. Yes, zone valve direction shown on valve itself is same as water flow
2. Check valve (1) is installed as shown in last piping diagram I posted at supply line before Primary Circulator. It is regular inline check valve. I do not think primary loop is causing any issue. It seems issue is between Zone valve which is being shut and return line.
3. 0014 Boiler pump as 32 GPM max. It will three floor house, since boiler located at basement level. Farthest zone is about 150 ft. long and about 20-22 ft high

4. 007e is only Primary Circulator and seems to be doing great. My previous Weil Mclain system did not have any primary pump, only system(Boiler) pump was good enough.

What if I replace my 0014 boiler pump with another 007e pump ? which has 16 GPM vs 32 GPM with 0014 pump. ? Only hold back I have is 0014 pump came with Boiler itself and I would think manufacturer would have provided appropriate pump.
 
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lordofthering

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So you tried pulling a spring but didn't think it was relevant? You give all the info except the important part where you already tried modifying the zone valve? Do you think you should include that before you let people start to help?

Your fix is a late night version of the right fix.

A delta p pump would also fix it.
John
Sorry, I did not mention that earlier. Also, fix what I tried it quite opposite which was recommended by others. There is two spring comes with honeywell valve and others have recommended to remove one of the spring from valve so it loses the strengh when it closes the valve and does not close too fast. I think what you are saying is one of the spring may have came loose or bad which causes valve to close faster. I have several brand new valve installed when I replaced system and none of the spring are bad where noise is happening. I will have to play little more with valve and see if trick works since lots of people are recommending removing spring trick.

delta p pump - Can you please provide me link to this exact pump. I want to make sure i look at the correct pump.

Question: Does variable speed pump means it adjust the speed of the pump circulation based on flow of the water ? Can speed control with any switch etc ?
 

Fitter30

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So is the check valves swing or spring. If there swing checks their wrong. Back to back tees what is the pipe size and center to center measurement. Heres a pic of a swing
 

lordofthering

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So is the check valves swing or spring. If there swing checks their wrong. Back to back tees what is the pipe size and center to center measurement. Heres a pic of a swing
I have below exact check valve. I believe it is swing valve. Size of pipe coming out from boiler is 1 1/4" including check valve.


Check valve located on Supply side of pipe right out of boiler itself in correct flow of water going out.

Center to center of what measurement you are asking for ? Once i know what you are asking I can provide you that details.
 

Fitter30

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I have below exact check valve. I believe it is swing valve. Size of pipe coming out from boiler is 1 1/4" including check valve.


Check valve located on Supply side of pipe right out of boiler itself in correct flow of water going out.

Center to center of what measurement you are asking for ? Once i know what you are asking I can provide you that details.
Swing checks are not for vertical piping only horizontal. The back to back boiler tees on the secondary loop. The center to center side outlets of tees. Should be any further apart than 4 times diameter of pipe for best operation. High fire with one boiler what is the temp difference between in and out? What water temp are u running in and out of boiler?
 
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John Gayewski

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So a delta t pump will adjust speed based on the supply and return temps.

Delta p is similar but more used for zone valves and can be deadheaded. So no need for the extra differential loops.

I don't claim to be a pump guru. If your using a 14 I would guess you'd want a 14 equal with a delta p feature.
 

lordofthering

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So a delta t pump will adjust speed based on the supply and return temps.

Delta p is similar but more used for zone valves and can be deadheaded. So no need for the extra differential loops.

I don't claim to be a pump guru. If your using a 14 I would guess you'd want a 14 equal with a delta p feature.
John,
You are correct I need Delta-P pump but I am not able to find any models of Delta-P pump in my search. Are taco pumps with IFC (Internal Flow Controls) are Delta-P pump and do they adjust speed based on water flow ? Can IFC pump be used for system pump in boiler ?
 

Fitter30

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As far as I can tell these are Delta-T pump not the Delta-P pump. Do you have list of Delta-P pump ? Is all IFC equipped pumps are delta-p pumps ?
Did u read the link i posted and why delta t is better than delta p?
heres your delta t
 

lordofthering

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fitter30,
Based on what I have read about Delta-T pump is...it is based on temperature differential 0-50 F. It changes speed based on temp. on supply and return side of the pipe which is great feature but what I need is similar application which changes the speed based on water pressure not the temperature. Will Detla-T change speed of the pump based on water pressure ?

I think Detal-P possibly vr1816 pump will do that.

I am still not sure which one is right choice but getting closer.
 

John Gayewski

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Did u read the link i posted and why delta t is better than delta p?
heres your delta t
Not a matter of better or worse. It's two different but similar things. The delta p pump is mainly for systems that change size. TRV's and zone pumps are what delta p pumps are for.
 

John Gayewski

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John,
You are correct I need Delta-P pump but I am not able to find any models of Delta-P pump in my search. Are taco pumps with IFC (Internal Flow Controls) are Delta-P pump and do they adjust speed based on water flow ? Can IFC pump be used for system pump in boiler ?
I'll have to read up and do some research. Pump selection is not something to be done willy nilly
 

lordofthering

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I'll have to read up and do some research. Pump selection is not something to be done willy nilly
I have ordered below pump, I will replace it and see if that helps. It has three mode, will try all three mode and see if that helps

 

Fitter30

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Im curious how did u come up with this pump? What is ur longest fin tube zone and how many 90s (ells)? You wrote about 12 gpm that pump is at 6' of head.
 
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