Water treatment

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Bdfletcher84

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Excellent information of the website, I have done a lot of stuff around the house with the help of the site, so thank you.

I am now moving from a standard whole house single cartridge sediment filter to a system and need some advice.

I have sent my lab test to 4 different companies, and all 4 have told me something completely different. The only thing in common was that they recommended an under-sink r/o system.

I have attached my results.

I would like a softener and assuming I will need another type of filter.

My house is less than 2 years old (New Construction) and I am already on my second well. I originally tested for ecoli and coliform after they installed the well so they shocked the system and it fixed the issue (about 10 months ago)

The GPM was coming back at about 16

If my current filter goes bad, the smell of the water is horrible, so I know I will need something for that. Hardness is at 6 and its leaving white rings around everything.

One company recommended a softener combined with a KDF media filter.

Any help would be appreciated.
 

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ditttohead

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What is the smell? Musty, metallic, rotten egg, fresh Sunday newspaper, or??? Your water test looks fairly decent. Should be fairly easy to treat.
 

Bdfletcher84

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Yes it's like rotten eggs, doesn't matter hot or cold. One softener that I was looking at has kdf media inside of it everybody was saying that that should take care of the smell and some other things. I was thinking of 32k system Softpro??
 

ditttohead

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KDF is an amazing media but must be applied correctly. putting a little bit in a softener tank is not that. It will simply clump up into a cement like ball in the bottom of the tank. KDF should be used in a separate tank and backwashed at an extremely high flow rate every day or two to prevent these problems.
Who is everybody? I doubt any of the highly experienced technicians that post regularly on this site will agree with that.

Do you know what your h2s level is? It needs to be tested on site for accuracy. Below a couple ppm and you can probably get away with a simple catalytic carbon backwashing system. Maybe even an AIO version. Here is a link to KDF and how to properly apply it.

http://kdfft.com/pdfs/kdf_POESheet.pdf
 

Taylorjm

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I'm not really sure why you would need any kind of iron filter, or even a softener. With your calcium and magnesium levels where they are at, and your hardness at only 6gpg. You said you had a sediment cartridge filter and could tell when it needed changing. What kind of filter media were you using? I've used the filter cartridges that had carbon and kdf media inside them with good results, but you would need to be careful about flow rates because they can be restricting. Even the water softeners you look at will restrict your flow, depending on how much you actually need.
 

Bdfletcher84

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I currently have a big blue housing with a sediment filter with carbon media inside. I just replaced it 3 weeks ago and this morning when i turned on the hot water i could start to smell a slight egg odor again.

The levels may not look that hard however I can tell that it is hard water and I have white deposits building up around everything to include the sink faucets the shower head etc also my white clothes recently have been staining a darkish color or an orangish brown color in certain areas
 

Taylorjm

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I currently have a big blue housing with a sediment filter with carbon media inside. I just replaced it 3 weeks ago and this morning when i turned on the hot water i could start to smell a slight egg odor again.

The levels may not look that hard however I can tell that it is hard water and I have white deposits building up around everything to include the sink faucets the shower head etc also my white clothes recently have been staining a darkish color or an orangish brown color in certain areas

With your iron levels that low I wouldn't have guessed your getting any orange staining. You do have some manganese which can cause black streaks. But if your getting the lime crusting... How does your soap work? Like if you get a sink full of water and add dish detergent to do dishes, does it still foam up? I remember people talking about issues with hot water smelling because of the anode rod in the hot water tank, but I don't have one so I really didn't pay attention to the article, you might want to search for that.
 

Bdfletcher84

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Yes without a filter at all, the bottom of humidifiers will have a grayish blackish film on the bottom or an orangish film.

It will sud up with a good amount of dish soap if i use the sprayer part of the sink but not the normal stream.

I have a tankless water heater and it smells with the cold water too
 

Bannerman

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As you said the softener has some KDF inside, leads us to conclude KDF media was loosely added into the resin tank. Although some installers will do that, it will not work for the reasons already mentioned.

The photo at the link you provided, shows a MediaGuard containing KDF-85 media within it.

Using KDF-85 in a MediaGuard maybe effective for you as it keeps the KDF media contained with the inlet to the tank where it will be of most benefit. As both KDF-55 and KDF-85 media is excessively heavy in weight, whether you install a MediaGuard within a softener or a back washing filter, the Backwash flow rate will need to be increased to the applicable rate required by the KDF MediaGuard.
 
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Holan

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KDF is an amazing media but must be applied correctly. putting a little bit in a softener tank is not that. It will simply clump up into a cement like ball in the bottom of the tank. KDF should be used in a separate tank and backwashed at an extremely high flow rate every day or two to prevent these problems.
Who is everybody? I doubt any of the highly experienced technicians that post regularly on this site will agree with that.

Do you know what your h2s level is? It needs to be tested on site for accuracy. Below a couple ppm and you can probably get away with a simple catalytic carbon backwashing system. Maybe even an AIO version. Here is a link to KDF and how to properly apply it.

http://kdfft.com/pdfs/kdf_POESheet.pdf


There are a few sellers in Vegas advertising KDF-55. They are placing it with carbon in a separate tank and the resin in the other. One of the builders for the one of the sellers is out in Utah, and they've been doing it for while. I talked to them, and they combat the KDF-55 clumping up problem by upflowing through the media to combat channeling and the clumping up issue.

Keep in mind Vegas municipal water doesn't have a lot of heavy metals. (According to EWG, Vegas has average 1.42 pCi/L Uranium and 0.204 ppb Chromium), so with the upflow and the lack of heavy metals be why the KDF doesn't turn into stone.

Another local builder puts KDF-55 and Carbon in a separate tank and has a timer backwash that back washes every week for a short period of time. I don't know the pressure they use. I read somewhere that if you you use the KDFFT's recommended pressure, it would blow the carbon out, hence why it shouldn't be mixed in the first place in a large tank.

The primary reason why the sellers here have a seperate tank with KDF-55 and Carbon is because of the chlorine and bacteriostatic. Las Vegas chlorine averages 0.9 PPM but can be as high as upwards of 1.7 or even 2.0 PPM, which would be bad for the resin (and skin).

The people out here recommend high quality 10% resin because of the chlorine levels and use carbon to remove chlorine for good measure. Since Chlorine is breeding grounds for bacteria, they recommend the KDF to go with the chlorine. <--Is bacteria in municipal water a concern for 1 cuft carbon in a tank 9x48 inch tank?

(Some sellers forgo KDF-55 because of the complications listed in this forum, while others continue to promote it)

Las Vegas water averages 16 gpg give or a take 2 gpg.

Is KDF-55 + Carbon overkill?

Note: I only started looking into water softeners a month ago. I'm not a plumber. I know nothing about it. I've been lurking these threads and going back and forth with different local sellers. I learned a lot. A month ago, I did not know what regeneration or back wash even meant. I know building my own would be too overwhelming for me, so I decided to go with a local seller/plumber.... but that is also overwhelming.

It seems a few of them don't build their own, but order their units from a builder, why is that? These companies that don't build their own seem to be the most popular.

I guess my question is that is there a benefit for all this. Or is it just simply over engineered? I definitely don't want chlorine in my water. Is a separate tank with 1 or 1.5 cu ft carbon the way to go? Can KDF be used with it or must it go in a separate tank. Thanks in advanced!
 

Bannerman

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When you mention a separate tank for the KDF media, I suspect you are referring to a MediaGuard which is a small diameter enclosure that will fit within the 2.5" opening at the top of a media tank containing other media. The KDF media will be contained separate from the loose media below it. Since it is usually desirable for the water to contact the KDF before contacting other media, then the flow direction needed would be downward from the top of the tank.

The Back washing media is reliant on flow rate and water temperature more than pressure. A larger diameter tank will require a higher backwash flow rate compared to a smaller diameter tank containing the same media.

KDF is extremely heavy (@171 lbs/ft3) compared to virtually all other media which is why KDF requires a much greater backwash flow rate compared to carbon (@28 lbs/ft3). Because a MediaGuard is only 2.5" diameter, the backwash rate needed for KDF within a MG will be much lower and usually only marginally higher to the flowrate needed for the loose carbon media contained within the same 10" or 12" diameter tank.

The link below shows a diagram of a MediaGuard installed within a carbon media tank.
https://www.google.com/search?q=ima...ECAsQAQ&biw=1024&bih=768#imgrc=991Z5mKz0rIfOM
 

Holan

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With 2.5 inch diameter in the media guard makes sense since it would take less flow rate then if it was in a 9 inch or 10 inch diameter tank. I read about that being the proper way. But no, it doesn't look that way.

Like I said I'm not the builder... but the builder in Utah says they go upwards, so it seems like the KDF is on the bottom. The seller has been selling it all these years and seems like no one complains about flow issues (I assume their KDF didn't turn to stone... yet). Looking at their brochures that's what it looks like.

The build is water down the tube goes up through under bedding --> KDF --> Carbon then goes out to the water softener down through the resin -->underbedding, then up through the tube then to the house. Two tanks. One for Filter. One for Softener.

Unless the pictures are not accurately depicting what's going on.

Edit: Also would you mind sharing exactly how much KDF-55 is recommended to put in the media guard? And how often it needs to be replaced and backwashed if running on relatively good city water (not well water).
 
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Bannerman

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With regard to your final questions, a Mediaguard will contain about 4 lbs of KDF 55 media,
Back washing is critical to the performance of KDF.

See the thread linked below as mediaguards were briefly discussed.

https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/setting-up-fleck-5600sxt.67554/

Upflow of any filter media will not perform as effectively as dowflow. Upflow will normally cause water flowing to faucets to raise, expand and fluidize the media. Since the space between the media particles or granules will be greater when expanded and fluidized, the water will more easily flow through the spaces, resulting in less contact with the media and therefore lower filtration effectiveness.

Because KDF is extremely heavy, it will settle to the bottom of the tank. Because the flow rate typically uilized during regular water use will vary and will usually be less than needed to backwash loose KDF media, the KDF will not be effectively backwashed in a typical upflow configuration.
 

Holan

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Thank you. There is another seller that does downflow timer on the filtration tank (but KDF is below the carbon) and then to a metered tank with softener.

Now I am wondering if I should just forgo the KDF all together. I do want the carbon as I dislike chlorine. Vegas is .9PPM and peakas at 1.7 or 2.0

Which would you recommend, stacked? Vortech? or Tanks side by side?
 

Bannerman

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As you are posting concurrently in two threads, hard to keep track of the conversation between both.

KDF should be above carbon as the KDF acts as a catalyst to convert the chlorine to chloride, reducing the load on the carbon. KDF is often utilized in a Mediaguard installed within a water softener media tank to remove chlorine before the resin. Unfortunately, KDF does not necessarily catalyze all contaminants such as the byproducts of disinfection to render them harmless.

The recommended flow rate per cubic foot of carbon is between 1-3 gpm for effective overall contaminant removal. The size of a carbon system will depend on which contaminants are to be removed and the flow rate anticipated. Carbon has a very high ability to remove of chlorine, even when 3 gpm is exceeded. If too little carbon is used for the flow rate encountered, even as chlorine may be effectively removed, other contaminants are likely to pass through.

A stacked tank-on-tank system will allow a smaller amount of carbon to be added to a softener without need of a second back washing valve. Because carbon requires a greater backwash rate per square/ft compared to softener resin, the carbon tank diameter will need to be smaller so the same backwash rate will work for both media types.

A softener tank such as a Vortech utilizing a divider, will allow carbon to remain separate and located above the softener resin, but will also mean a lower capacity softener, and significantly less carbon.
 
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