Water Test, Softener Recommendation

[mrserc]

Hi all,

Looking for guidance on a water softener. Water Test is attached, details below. I was trying to be brief but realized I’ve probably made the post too long for people to read, but didn’t want to leave anything out… that said, here goes:

I moved into a house about 5 years ago that has a low yielding well, cistern, sediment filter, softener, UV so have done quite a bit of reading on this forum over the past few years. I’m starting to have issues with the ~20 year old existing softener (1.25 cu. ft. Fleck 5600), and it seems undersized for our water hardness and growing family anyway so looking to replace rather than repair/rebuild.

I’ve had the raw well water tested and just got the results today, no iron or manganese and hardness of 19 gpg, which is less than the 26 tested multiple times over the past years with the Hach 5B. Report attached. Surprised at the Coliforms result but we do have the UV. It was originally a dug well that was then drilled deeper so probably gets contamination from surface water. No E. Coli at least.

When I thought the hardness was 26gpg, I was leaning toward a 2.5 Cu. Ft. 5800 XTR2 or XTRi. I was going to go 5810 but have heard that there has been some problems uncovered with that valve that they’re working on.

Everyone who I’ve spoken to locally is recommending a lot smaller unit though, including a Fleck Distributor who builds systems for water techs to buy and install.

Household size: 5 (2 adults, 3 children) Children are very young right now so don’t use much water but want this to work as they get older too.
Water Consumption: Expecting 60 gallons/day x 5 people = 300 gallons/day
Hardness: 19 gpg
Proposed Salt Dose: 8 lbs/cu. ft. Or 20 lbs total
Resulting Capacity: 60,000 grains
Regeneration Frequency: 10.5 days (or 7.7 days if hardness goes back to 26 gpg).. Given no iron or manganese my understanding is we can go as long as 30 days before needing to do a day override in case our water usage right now is way under that.. although based on the 19gpg I feel like 2 cu. ft. would be just fine.
Media Tank: 13” x 54”
Resin: Was just going to go with standard 8%
Desired Maximum Flow Rate: I’m putting a 12 gpm flow limiter on the UV filter as that’s the maximum it can handle (Viqua IHS10-D4)
Water Temperature (for DLFC): 57F
Pressure Tank cut-in/out: 40/60 psi

Questions:
1. Anything wrong with the above, or any other suggestions based on the results?
2. Thoughts on 5800 vs. 5810 valve? I can make the connection 3/4” or 1” as the piping is also being redone.
3. Having some trouble trying to figure out injector size, BLFC, DLFC.. DLFC in particular who people are telling me locally doesn’t really matter
Injector: I think according to dittohead’s catalogue, 2.5 cu. ft. is between #0 red and #1 white, not sure how to decide or pros/cons. Fleck guide for downflow 13” tank appears to be #2 blue.
BLFC: Again according to dittohead’s catalogue, 0.25.. although Fleck guide says 0.5
DLFC: I’m guessing 3gpm? I think that gets me about 40% bed expansion at 57F but not too sure from the charts and the posts. I will put in a top basket but don’t want to rely on that.
4. How much gravel would be recommended? I’m assuming this has to work with the required freeboard and DLFC?

Thanks in advance for any guidance.

 

[mrserc]

Also.. forgot to mention, I noticed on p79 of dittohead’s catalogue it shows #2/#3 typical use for a 13” tank - which is in line with the Fleck installer guide.
https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/78-79

But on p38 it shows #0/#1 which I think is more in line with what I read here.
https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/38-39

Not sure if I’m missing something.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[ditttohead]

Gravel is based on tank size. Fill the bottom dome... 10" tank is about 15 pounds, 12" tank is about 20 pounds, 13" tank is about 25 pounds...
5800 for now, avoid the 5810 while they figure them out.
Injector is very important, but the programming can be adjusted to accommodate over/undersized injectors to a point.
Your system size of 2.5 is fine. you want to get out beyond 7 days between regenerations, anything less than 7 days or farther than 25 is potentially wasteful.

 

[mrserc]

Thanks for the reply.

The thing I’m most unsure about then is DLFC. Is 3gpm one about right?

BLFC will go with the 0.25 and then for injector sounds like I can pick either #0 or #1, my understanding is it just means a longer or shorter brine fill.. but not sure if any real benefit to having longer.

 

[Bannerman]

For a 13" diameter softener, the Drain Line Flow Control flow rate will be typically 4.6 GPM with 60°F water temperature. If your water temperature is 50°F, then the flow rate should be reduced 10%.

The Brine Line Flow Control and Injector are two different components which do different things.

For 2.5 ft3 of resin, the usual recommended capacity setting will be 60,000 grains. To regenerate 60K gr will require 20 lbs salt each regeneration cycle. As 1 gallon water entering the brine tank will dissolve 3 lbs salt, then 6.67 gallons will be needed to dissolve 20 lbs.

For 6.67 gallons to enter the tank while using a 0.25 GPM BLFC flow restrictor, the Brine Fill setting will need to be 26.68 minutes, but BF is whole minutes and so will need to be rounded up to 27 minutes.

The injector will control the flow rate for the 20 lbs brine to be drawn from the brine tank. The appropriate size injector will cause all of the brine to be transferred during Brine Draw from the brine tank to the resin tank in no less than 15-minutes.

The appropriate Brine Draw setting will be usually 4X the time needed to transfer the brine, so if if the brine is transferred in 15-minutes, the BD setting will be 60-minutes. If a smaller injector is causing the brine to be transferred in 25-minutes, then the BD setting will be 100-minutes.

 

[mrserc]

Thanks a lot for this explanation. It puts a few different things together I had read about here separately.

There’s clear math on the BLFC calculation for getting the appropriate amount of water to dissolve the salt. Is there something similar to understand how long it would take for the 6.67 gallons of brine to be drawn from the tank based on injector size to hit close to or above that 15 minute mark? I’ve seen the 60 minutes BD setting referenced lots. I’m thinking in my case being on the line between the #0 and #1 that I’m okay with going with the #1 and I’ll still be above that 15 minutes but not sure of the math. I think at this point I just want to understand it better.

I was off on the DLFC estimate based on looking at the charts.. What I tried to do was calculate linear flow rate for the 13” tank with a 3gpm DLFC which gave me 3.3gpm/sq.ft…

3 gpm/ (pi* (0.54167ft ^2))
=3.255 gpm/sqft

… and then looked at this graph https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/66-67 and figured I’d be between the green (50F) and yellow (68F) which looked to be about 40% bed expansion. Don’t have the exact math for those charts. I’m pretty close to the 60F you mentioned though. And I would calculate 5 gpm/sq.ft. linear flow rate with a 4.6gpm DLFC which according to that chart puts me closer or just above that 50% that’s typically recommended. I recall somewhere 25%-50% being a range but definitely seems to be 50% recommended more often. I just don’t understand the freeboard issue that well and couldn’t figure out how we can do 50% bed expansion when I read that tanks are typically 2/3 full.

 

[Reach4]

Is there something similar to understand how long it would take for the 6.67 gallons of brine to be drawn from the tank based on injector size to hit close to or above that 15 minute mark?

Yes, well somewhat clear, but more involved.
See the graphs for brine draw in the back of the service manual.

Nothing wrong with exceeding 15 minutes. If you go much more than 15 minutes, just increase BD time.

 

[mrserc]

Yes, well somewhat clear, but more involved.
See the graphs for brine draw in the back of the service manual.

Nothing wrong with exceeding 15 minutes. If you go much more than 15 minutes, just increase BD time.

Thanks. Looks like ~0.25gpm for #0 and ~0.35gpm for #1.. So for 6.67 gallons, it would be 27 minutes for #0 (since 0.25gpm is same as BLFC) and 19 minutes for #1. So BD time for #0 would be 108 minutes and #1 would be 76 minutes.

Out of curiosity I had to check Fleck’s recommendation of #2, which is ~0.5gpm and would be just over 13 minutes.

 

[Reach4]

I recall somewhere 25%-50% being a range but definitely seems to be 50% recommended more often. I just don’t understand the freeboard issue that well and couldn’t figure out how we can do 50% bed expansion when I read that tanks are typically 2/3 full.

So 2/3 full is base. If it expands to the top, that is 50% bed expansion. 35% to 40% might be a good target.

Thanks. Looks like ~0.25gpm for #0 and ~0.35gpm for #1.. So for 6.67 gallons, it would be 27 minutes for #0 (since 0.25gpm is same as BLFC) and 19 minutes for #1. So BD time for #0 would be 108 minutes and #1 would be 76 minutes.

You are planning on 2.5 cuft of resin

Thanks. Looks like ~0.25gpm for #0 and ~0.35gpm for #1.. So for 6.67 gallons, it would be 27 minutes for #0 (since 0.25gpm is same as BLFC) and 19 minutes for #1. So BD time for #0 would be 108 minutes and #1 would be 76 minutes.

I am ok with those numbers, but we get there in a slightly different way. I put the 1.155x (15.5%) expansion of the water as it saturates with salt to become brine. But I feel comfortable with a 3.5 factor instead of 4. Maybe the 4 number builds that in on purpose. Anyway, I have sanity-checked your numbers. I would prefer the #1 or #0 over the #2.

If you wanted to empirically check, you could monitor the drain line with a TDS meter. When the drain TDS is back somewhat close to the TDS of the raw water, you have rinsed long enough.

10% crosslinked resin is important for city water.

 

[Bannerman]

The recommended Drain flow rate specified above is 5 GPM/ft2 which is to provide the typical 50% bed expansion during backwash.

The usual 2/3 calculated tank fill volume is based within the tank's straight section, not including the top dome. As the bottom dome is filled with bedding gravel, it too is not included in the resin height calculation. The freeboard space to allow up to 50% bed expansion for a tank that is 2/3 filled with resin = 1/3 of the tank height.

https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/155

 

[mrserc]

So 2/3 full is base. If it expands to the top, that is 50% bed expansion. 35% to 40% might be a good target.

You are planning on 2.5 cuft of resin


I am ok with those numbers, but we get there in a slightly different way. I put the 1.155x (15.5%) expansion of the water as it saturates with salt to become brine. But I feel comfortable with a 3.5 factor instead of 4. Maybe the 4 number builds that in on purpose. Anyway, I have sanity-checked your numbers. I would prefer the #1 or #0 over the #2.

If you wanted to empirically check, you could monitor the drain line with a TDS meter. When the drain TDS is back somewhat close to the TDS of the raw water, you have rinsed long enough.

10% crosslinked resin is important for city water.

Thanks. I do have TDS meter so I can definitely do that when I’m getting it set up. I’ll go with the #1 but I’m curious, what makes you prefer one over the other — trying to understand if you just adjust the BD time what does going with #1 over #0 or #2 get you?

I’m on a private well so no chloridation and there was no detectable iron or manganese so I’m assuming I’d be ok with 8% but if I find 10% seems like to reason not to go for it.

The recommended Drain flow rate specified above is 5 GPM/ft2 which is to provide the typical 50% bed expansion during backwash.

The usual 2/3 calculated tank fill volume is based within the tank's straight section, not including the top dome. As the bottom dome is filled with bedding gravel, it too is not included in the resin height calculation. The freeboard space to allow up to 50% bed expansion for a tank that is 2/3 filled with resin = 1/3 of the tank height.

https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/155

Thanks for this. I totally missed that page in the catalogue and was going solely based on a graph on another page.

I understand the freeboard now. I didn’t realize when I was reading generally 2/3 full that it was referring to only the straight section, and I figured if I was adding gravel then I’d be more than 2/3 full so wouldn’t have enough room for bed expansion.

 

[Reach4]

Thanks. I do have TDS meter so I can definitely do that when I’m getting it set up. I’ll go with the #1 but I’m curious, what makes you prefer one over the other — trying to understand if you just adjust the BD time what does going with #1 over #0 or #2 get you?

Slower flow gives the media more contact time. How many more grains of softening from taking extra time? I don't know. More than zero, and less than a lot. Faster flow means you are out of service (in bypass) for less time. However being in bypass for an extra 30 minutes at 3:10 am is not a big deal for most. Getting a bit of hard water in the pipes when you do the occasional flush is not a real problem.

While you have the TDS meter out, it would be interesting to know at what point into BD the drain line TDS takes that big jump. Maybe 10 minutes. So we would be curious, and wonder what others would predict before you tell us what really happened.

At the later minutes of BD, I said to note when the drain line was somewhat close to the TDS of the raw water. What is somewhat close? I am thinking maybe 20% would be close enough. So if the raw water was 400 ppm, then 480 ppm would be 20% higher than the raw water TDS. I have no good basis for my number of 20%. WAG. See what numbers you get.

 

[mrserc]

Will do. I’m not sure when I’ll have the new system up and running though. I have a quote from an online company across the country for the XTR2, but waiting for the well/water tech I deal with to provide a quote too on the XTR2 as well as XTRi to see what the price difference is. Would prefer to go with him if it’s not dramatically more, but he’s really busy, and he switched from Fleck to Clack a few years ago so needs to go to a different distributor for the Fleck. Can’t seem to find the XTRi anywhere for online purchase. I heard they’re trying to restrict that model to installers only.