Water softner recommendations wanted

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ChrisBeall

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I'm about to replace a 35+ year old water softener. About the only thing I'm sure of is that I want one with a separate brine tank so it can be cleaned out from time to time.

I like the idea of a demand-based regeneration system. I don't like that they are necessarily more complex than the timer-based system I have now, so I want something that is both reliable and maintainable (which means parts and technical documentation are available LONG after the sale).

The Fleck 5600SXT controller seems to be VERY popular. Actually surprisingly so, in a competitive market with 3 major players and many minor ones. Are there any downsides to that model?

I read that a round brine tank is stronger than the rounded-corner rectangular ones. True or False?

My drain line has to go UP to a 7' ceiling, then about 10 feet horizontally to where it descends and drains. Are there any units that WON'T handle this?

There seem to be more different resins than I'd thought possible. Is that really a critical choice or is just about anything OK?

There are two types of demand meters. One is called turbine, the other is called ????? (but it's a vertical vane in a domed housing). Any difference in accuracy, longevity, or ???

My current resin tank is about 7.5" around and 38" high. Many that I'm reading about seem to be significantly larger, especially in height, though the packaged units I saw at Lowes (not of interest because the brine tank isn't separate) seem to be about the same size as mine. Am I mistaken or are current units larger than old ones were?

I've been using solar salt. Some units seem to want more-expensive pellets. Is that really necessary?

What did I forget to ask about?

It's a bit challenging to answer the usual questions about my water, since I'm on an 800-user system that sources from 4 wells, blending them according to astrological signs and the price of tomatoes, but they tell me to use 17 grains-per-gallon. Detailed company report at http://rollingmeadowswater.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/AWQR_Hurley_2014.pdf
The third paragraph discusses blending of the different sources.

Current usage is 5000-6000 gallons per month, with 2 adults, a dishwasher and clothes washer, but it's a 4-bedroom house... When I ran some standard calculations I came up with either a 32,000 or 48,000 grain model, but I'd be glad to hear other opinions.
 

Reach4

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http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/sizing.php suggests 1 would be enough, but 1.5 would be a better choice. That is normally done with a 54 x 10 diameter tank. 2.0 cuft is normally 52x12. Each would do well. The salt usage per year would be very slightly less with the 2.0 oddly enough. That is because the softener will leave up to one day's capacity on the table each regen. The 2.0 will regen less often.

A feature that I like on the 7000SXT is that it uses softened water for the brine fill. Its a small thing, but the 5600SXT might leave a little non-soluble material that might add up in 10 or 20 years. Also 7000SXT has an automatic adjustment of the reserve available, and it can do two backwashes. The difference in price is often pretty small.

Solar is fine. Pellets are cheaper where I am. Go figure.

The other type of metering is called a paddle wheel.

Round is theoretically stronger, but my rectangular does not distort.
 
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Bannerman

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I like the idea of a demand-based regeneration system. I don't like that they are necessarily more complex than the timer-based system I have now, so I want something that is both reliable and maintainable (which means parts and technical documentation are available LONG after the sale).
A demand based regeneration is how you should proceed as it will likely be much more salt and water efficient. A timer based system will regenerate to the schedule programmed whether or not any amount of capacity has been consumed. Some states are now requiring demand based systems for new softener installations.

As most of the current valves incorporate digital controls, almost any will be more complex than your existing mechanical timer control.

The 3 large brands support their systems for a long duration

The Fleck 5600SXT controller seems to be VERY popular. Actually surprisingly so, in a competitive market with 3 major players and many minor ones. Are there any downsides to that model?

The 5600 valve has been estimated to be the highest selling control valve. It has been available for a few decades, first offered as a mechanical timer initiated model and then a mechanical demand control was added and most recently, a digital controller. All are reliable.

The drawback to the 5600 is the older design and relatively low flow capacity compared to many of the newer designs so it is limited particularly when utilized for backwashing filter applications. The newer Fleck 7000SXT valve and controller is a great alternative as it also has been proven to be highly reliable, and has a higher flow capacity rating than the 5600 and the purchase price is now often comparable to the 5600.


I read that a round brine tank is stronger than the rounded-corner rectangular ones. True or False?

Liquids in a round tank will exert pressure evenly on the walls of a round tank whereas pressure will not be evenly displaced on the walls of a rectangular tank. That said, I don't expect you will experience problems using a rectangular brine tank if a rectangular version is better suited for your space.

My drain line has to go UP to a 7' ceiling, then about 10 feet horizontally to where it descends and drains. Are there any units that WON'T handle this?

As drain flow is provided by your home's water system pressure, the drain routing you specified, will not be an issue.

There seem to be more different resins than I'd thought possible. Is that really a critical choice or is just about anything OK?

Standard resin (8% crosslink) will be most cost effective and is quite appropriate for most applications. 10% crosslink resin is somewhat more tolerant to continuous chlorine exposure but at a higher cost. Fine mesh resin although more efficient when dealing with iron, is not often recommended as it can reduce water flow through the softener. SST-60 is also more efficient for iron bearing water but has a high cost.

There are two types of demand meters. One is called turbine, the other is called ????? (but it's a vertical vane in a domed housing). Any difference in accuracy, longevity, or ???

A paddle wheel meter has a longer history as a mechanical device whereas the turbine is newer and works electronically. While most newer digital controllers can be programmed for either, most newer softeners come equipped with turbines.

My current resin tank is about 7.5" around and 38" high. Many that I'm reading about seem to be significantly larger, especially in height, though the packaged units I saw at Lowes (not of interest because the brine tank isn't separate) seem to be about the same size as mine. Am I mistaken or are current units larger than old ones were?

The tank size you mention seems unusually small. The tank size will correspond to the quantity of resin contained which will determine the total capacity of the softener. A larger softener can usually be programmed to be more salt efficient (use less salt) to regenerate a specific amount of capacity compared to a smaller softener which is programmed to regenerate the same amount of capacity.

I've been using solar salt. Some units seem to want more-expensive pellets. Is that really necessary?

Not necessary as sodium is sodium. Salt specifically for water softening should only be utilized and also look for clean salt as some contain more contaminants than others. I understand solar salt is cost effective and is usually clean.

What did I forget to ask about?

Some online softener dealers do not include (or even mention) a gravel underbed. That is a layer of gravel at the bottom of the resin tank which helps to distribute flow evenly across the diameter of the tank. As gravel is heavy and as shipping costs are usually included in the system price, omitting the gravel underbed will save the dealer some shipping expense.

It's a bit challenging to answer the usual questions about my water, since I'm on an 800-user system that sources from 4 wells, blending them according to astrological signs and the price of tomatoes, but they tell me to use 17 grains-per-gallon. Detailed company report at http://rollingmeadowswater.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/AWQR_Hurley_2014.pdf
The third paragraph discusses blending of the different sources.

The hardness level specified is likely an average level throughout the system. As the hardness amount can vary depending on your proximity to one well over the others and due to variable system demands depending on season, it would be appropriate to periodically test the water at your location. You may wish to consider obtaining a Hach 5-B hardness test kit to perform testing yourself.

Current usage is 5000-6000 gallons per month, with 2 adults, a dishwasher and clothes washer, but it's a 4-bedroom house... When I ran some standard calculations I came up with either a 32,000 or 48,000 grain model, but I'd be glad to hear other opinions.

Your water consumption is above average at 100 gallons/person/day. With modern water efficient appliances and plumbing fixtures, average consumption is now commonly estimated as 60 gallons/person/day whereas historically, it had been estimated as 75 gallons/person/day.

A larger softener will deliver more capacity while requiring less frequent regeneration. As previously stated, salt efficiency can also be improved with a larger softener.

For example, a 1 cuft softener (32,000 grain model) can deliver 30K grains of capacity, but will require 15 lbs of salt each regeneration cycle to do so (= 2,000 grains per pound). A 1.5 cuft unit (48K model) can deliver the same 30K grains of capacity, but will use only 9 lbs of salt (= 3,333 grains per pound). Although the 1 cuft unit can also be programmed to deliver the same 3,333 grains/lb efficiency, the usable capacity will be reduced to 20K grains with a 6 lb salt setting.

Using your stated consumption of 6000 gallons/month = 200 gals/day X 17 gpg hardness, your softening requirements are then 3,400 grains/day.

With 20K of capacity / 3400 = 5.9 (5) day regeneration frequency.
With 30K of capacity / 3400 = 8.8 (8) day regeneration frequency.
With 40K of capacity (ie: 2 cuft softener using 12 lbs of salt) / 3400 = 11.8 (11) day regeneration frequency.

For further efficiency, it is desirable to regenerate not more often than 1X per week but as your water contains no iron, regeneration could be a few as 1X/month with a large enough system.


 
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Reach4

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http://www.cargill.com/salt/about/faqs/water-conditioning/index.jsp#q7 says
Should I use pellets or solar salt?
Since solar salt contains slightly more water insoluable matter than (evaporated salt) pellets, consideration should be given to salt usage, softener cleanout frequency and softener design. If salt usage is light one could probably use the products interchangeably. If salt usage is heavy, insoluables will build up faster when using solar salt, and the need to more frequently clean the brine tank/reservoir will be increased. Brine tank cleanout can be a messy task.

 

ditttohead

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Salt type is usually regional. Shipping salt is very expensive. If a solar evaporation facility is nearby, you will probably do fine using solar salt. Cleaning the tank every other year involves allowing the salt level to get low, dump the tank out, clean, sanitize, refill. Not a big deal, and certainly not difficult.

The electronic turbine on the 5600SXT is good, the electronic paddle wheel meter is bulletproof. Both are available. The paddle wheel makes the valve a few inches deeper which can be a problem sometimes.

Larger single tank systems offer much higher efficiencies without incorporating "tricks" that are complex, and typically cause more problems than they are worth. ie: variable brining, twin alternating, etc.

If you are desiring absolute simplicity and efficiency, a 5600 mechanical meter system is a viable option.
 

ChrisBeall

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If you are desiring absolute simplicity and efficiency, a 5600 mechanical meter system is a viable option.

In another thread, you were enthusiastic about the Clack WS-1 and I saw your well done YouTube video showing how easy it is to refurbish that unit if needed. I liked what I saw there regarding maintainability. Would you consider the Fleck 5600SXT and Clack WS-1 to be equally good?
 

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Dittohead suggested the 5600 'mechanical meter' as you mentioned wanting simplicity. The mechanical version does not utilize a digital interface and is not as programmable as the digital controllers such as the WS-1 or Fleck SXT digital controllers utilized on the 5600 and 7000 valves.
 

ChrisBeall

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Dittohead suggested the 5600 'mechanical meter' as you mentioned wanting simplicity. The mechanical version does not utilize a digital interface and is not as programmable as the digital controllers such as the WS-1 or Fleck SXT digital controllers utilized on the 5600 and 7000 valves.
Understood. My feeling regarding simplicity is evolving... What I'm seeing is that the mechanical complexity of the valves seems to be similar, i.e. a single spool valve for the various stages of regeneration, plus a separate brine valve. A single timer motor is used to advance the mechanics, either in a linear fashion (fixed time cycles) or under electronic control, allowing for variation in the timing of each cycle (with a mechanical cam to tell the electronics the current position of the valve).

But I don't want to build a softener from parts. I want to buy an assembled unit and have a plumber put it in (3/4" copper pipes and I don't do copper). So my questions are intended to let me select the right combination from among what is available.

So, here's where my thinking is now:
48,000 grain model for efficiency (1.5 cuft)
metered regeneration interval, also for efficiency and to prevent hard water when house guests are present.
separate brine tank, so it can be cleaned (I did this two years ago on the current unit and became aware of the need). Prefer round tank, up to 20" diameter.
Maintainable control valve (WS-1 or 7000SXT or 5600SXT or ???), though I hope not to ever need to maintain it, since going forward I'll probably need more maintenance than it will.
Gravel bed only if resin tank is large diameter, where 'large' is not clearly defined. (> 12"?)
8% crosslink resin. My water company uses as little chlorine as they can get away with.

Comments on the above appreciated.

I'd like to use a local plumber, and, right or wrong, I'm leery of Culligan and the like because I think they are overpriced and tend to oversell solutions. That leaves me with online sources, so any experience, pro or con, that others have would be very helpful. I always check BBB reports to eliminate complete dogs, but that still leaves a lot of variation...
 

ditttohead

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The 5600 mechanical is still one of the best selling valves but you are very correct in your description. In reality, they are actually much more complex. Consider a mechanical clock vs. a digital one. The electronics can eliminate a lot of moving components. They also offer much more in regards to programming and diagnostics. But... since the mechanical 5600 is built like a tank, it has been extremely reliable for over the past 30 years. They even have an amazingly durable mechanical meter that uses a simply paddle wheel and gear reduction set that are all water lubricated.

The Clack WS1 is an exceptional valve but a little more limited in its availability from online sellers. The Fleck 7000 is more modern than the 5600SXT and in my opinion a better design. Since the valve was designed from the ground up, not simply modified from an old platform, the 7000 is a much simpler design. It is also a higher flowing valve, but I doubt that would matter much in your application. You cant go wrong with any of these four valves.

Gravel, any size system, get it. Ignore the ramblings of companies claiming it is not needed, or that it is a detriment. These companies are simply desperate to save a couple dollars in shipping, and gravel adds 15-20 pounds to a system. Too many online companies and people buying from online companies only look at the price. They get excited that one company is $1 cheaper than the next. They don't bother to notice that the company they are buying from is a UPS store, or from some guy running 10 different businesses from a basement in their moms house.
 

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Clack stopped selling to the DIY market a few years ago. As online sources typically supply the DIY market, you may experience problems buying a Clack based system online.

Most independant water treatment companies market and support Fleck, Clack and Autotrol so as you want a system installed for you, you could have the local pros quote you a system price.

Water softeners are normally comprised of various off-the-shelf components which are assembled into a system sized to satisfy your requirements. The exception is the propriatary brands (ie: Kinetico, Culligan etc) as they offer specific pre-assembled configurations with parts and service usually only available from their dealers.

There are no drawbacks to a gravel underbed in any of the softener sizes you are considering. A gravel underbed can also act as a safeguard to prevent resin from entering your plumbing, if the bottom screen should ever be damaged.

Best that you're becoming educated on systems. While you might expect a plumber to be familiar with programming a softener, they may not have any experience doing so as water treatment is not necessarily their expertese.
 

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Clack stopped selling to the DIY market a few years ago. As online sources typically supply the DIY market, you may experience problems buying a Clack based system online.

Most independant water treatment companies market and support Fleck, Clack and Autotrol so as you want a system installed for you, you could have the local pros quote you a system price.

Best that you're becoming educated on systems. While you might expect a plumber to be familiar with programming a softener, they may not have any experience doing so as water treatment is not necessarily their expertese.
 

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Oops, wrong button... OK, so Clack may not be a viable option, so now I lean toward 7000SXT. And gravel.

I'm not worried about programming; I think I've grasped the parameters of the softening process and recycling, and I'm a computer geek. It's the actual connection to the house plumbing that I want no part of (um, and the rebuild or replacement of the in-place bypass valves and perhaps some other things I'll see as I look through the house).
 

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I found a local plumber who can do the installation work. He in turn took my specifications:
48,000 grain model for efficiency (1.5 cuft)
Gravel bed in resin tank.
8% crosslink resin.
Metered regeneration interval.
Separate brine tank, so it can be cleaned. Prefer round tank, up to 20" diameter.
Maintainable control valve (Fleck 7000SXT or equiv).​
and, after what he described as some difficulty, came back with a proposal:
CSI MS48V-1B (CSI Water Systems, Ashland, Ohio)
48,000 grain, 1.5 cuft.
Vortech tank (the 'V' suffix). I believe this is an alternative to gravel, i.e. the two are mutually exclusive.
No mention of resin type, so I'll assume 8%.
Metered valve (see below)
18" x 33" brine tank (same diameter and a little higher than current one).
10" x 54" resin tank (vs. 8" x 38" now, but no space issue)
No explanation of '1B' suffix, which I deduce to mean a Signature 1 valve, perhaps of a second generation.​

I'd appreciate any comments on this proposal, especially the CSI Signature valve, which apparently originated around 2003.
 

Bannerman

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The Vortec grid underbed seems like a great idea with some potential benefits. I understand that some participants here have had negative experience with grid breakage. The system is propriatary to Vortec and as the grid is installed during tank assembly, the grid is not removable so any issues with it, will require replacement of the tank also. A gravel underbed is cheap and well proven.

Fleck, Clack or Autotrol valves are standards in the water treatment industry. Each have a long, proven history of reliability and product support and parts and service are easily obtained through most water treatment dealers.

As you specified a Fleck 7000 or equivalent, I then expect a supplier selling any other product, will claim their product is equivalent if not superior.

The 'Signature' control valves could be be a good and probably a less expnsive alternative to the 3 major brands. As they appear to be proprietary to CSI, I doubt many here will have much experience with them and hopefully, parts and service will remain available in the future. I don't know where they're made or who makes them or who other than CSI would offer parts and service, or at least parts only. I also don't know how well they would support their product after sale or will support you if their product fails and floods your house.

The product requirements you specified, are very standard and basic for a softener and so should be easily obtainable. There should have been no issues in quoting on a system adhering to your specifications.

I suggest that if you wish to purchase locally and have the system installed by the same seller, obtain a few quotes through local water treatment dealers in your area (not propriatary equipment dealers such as Kinetico or Culligan). While you may expect a plumber is needed to install a system, water treatment is a specialty industry and installing and maintaining water treatment equipment is what a dealer does on a regular basis.
 
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ChrisBeall

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Bannerman,

Yeah, I knew the 'or equivalent' wasn't a great idea to put in the specification. And I DID say I wanted gravel, but apparently that was hard to match up with the other requirements, at least locally.

Aside from the immediate need for a softener, I'm trying to establish a relationship with a new plumber. This looks like a good opportunity, but I think the specialty knowledge of water softeners is not there, so I'll have to provide that myself, which I'm becoming more comfortable about thanks in part to several folks here.

By the way, I think your post the most diplomatic one I've ever seen on the web...
 

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Not being delighted with the system found by the plumber, I did some more online research and came up with:
Abundant Flow Water Model 48k-70SXT
48,000 grain (1.5 cuft)
8% resin standard, 10% as an option
Fleck 7000SXT valve
Round 18 X 33" brine tank as an option
10 x 54" resin tank
No mention of gravel, but see Media Guard, below​
This seems to exactly match my specification, though it means I'll have to do some of the assembly myself. I've read through their instructions twice and don't see anything that gives me concern, assuming the final plumbing hook-up is done by the plumber.

I am puzzled by the 'Media Guard', which they provide in two versions (both as options), KDF55 for city water, and KDF85 for well water. They also sell both separately, but then call them Filter Media. Both are "high-purity copper-zinc granule media", with the 85 looking coarser. This leads to two questions:
  1. Would this be used in place of gravel as it is usually described?
  2. I'm on a small commercial water system, which juggles 4 wells and does little, if any, additional processing of the water. Is that considered 'city water' (even though it has little or no chlorine) or 'well water' (including, at least in the past, some traces of iron)?
Any comments on this setup, including the company, greatly appreciated. PM if you prefer.
 

Bannerman

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As your water supply is public in nature, supplying numerous homes, I expect disinfection will be utilized as a matter of safety. Chlorine is cheap and effective. Although a higher concentration is usually initially injected, chlorine strength will degrade but a low residual concentration will be maintained throughout the distribution system.

Since the latest system is offered by an online dealer and shipping is included, they might be omitting the gravel under bed. I would question the matter and specify that you require gravel. I see they do specify a 10" X 54" Structural (good quality and correct size) tank, unlike some online dealers who in omitting the gravel under bed in a 1.5 cuft system, also downgrade the tank to 10" X 48", thereby making it unsuitable for owners to add gravel afterward.

A mediaguard does not replace the gravel under bed but is installed at the top of the tank to remove chlorine, heavy metals etc, from the incoming water prior to contact with the softener resin. Here's some info: http://www.qualitywatertreatment.com/media_guard_filters.htm

http://www.kdfft.com/HowItWorks.htm
 
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MaplesonD

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The system I would like to get is very similar to what ChrisBeall is looking for. This is the first I have seen about mediaguard and it seems like a low maintenance alternative to a carbon filter somewhere else in the system. Am I reading it correctly that the mediaguard lasts for ~6 years and filters out chlorine as well as other undesirables? Sounds like there is little to no maintenance on the mediaguard itself, what are the downsides aside from what looks like a small added cost?

Are the tanks, brine tanks, etc. of good quality from the Abundant water flow site? for the 64k version they state that the tank is 12x48 where I thought for 2 cubic feet the tanks was generally 12x52, does this mean that one may not have gravel?
 
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