Water Softener Help

[Bannerman]

In post #73, you state BD (brine draw) is currently programmed as 6 minutes. Was that a typing mistake or is it really set to 6?

BD is commonly set to 60 minutes. If the setting is actually 6 minutes, then brine will not be rinsed from the resin bed so when soft water flow resumes after regeneration, then the soft water to faucets will be salty to taste.

In addition, since brine usually takes approx 15 minutes to be drawn from the brine tank, then more than 50% of the brine made for that regen cycle, will not be used and will remain in the brine tank. The BF cycle occuring at the end, will add additional water to prepare the programmed quantity of brine for the next regen cycle. This then results in an increasingly high liquid quantity in the brine tank which your earlier post seems to suggest is occuring.

 

[Rmk9785e]

My mistake again. Thank you for educating me further.
BD was set at 60. I’ll be more careful in the future with rechecking my numbers.

May I suggest the bright minds on this forum join hands and publish a “Water softening for dummies” book. It will be handy for novices like myself.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[ditttohead]

The problem is the nearly infinite number of variables... there is a water treatment for dummies book. Even the simplest certification in this industry takes months of studying to pass.

 

[Rmk9785e]

I will say that using 6 pounds/cuft will use less water and more salt than 4.5 will. 8 pounds/cuft will use less water and more salt than 6 will.
<SNIP>
I would go to 6 initially, and if you are comforted that it uses a little less water than the current settings, good enough.

<SNIP>
With a 2 cuft softener, if 'C' is set to 48, then 48,000 grains would be the maximum capacity consumed before regeneration will occur. Although there will be 12K grains capacity remaining of the total, that remaining capacity assists to deliver soft water at a reasonable flow rate, right up to when regeneration occurs. To regenerate 48K in a 2 cuft unit, would require only 16 lbs salt, thereby resulting in an efficient max salt efficiency of 3,000 grains per pound.
Likewise, a 'C' setting of 40, would require 12 lbs salt, resulting in a further increase in max salt efficiency to 3,333 grains/lb.
<SNIP>
The usual recommended salt settings for your unit are 12 lbs/40 or 16 lbs/48. The 12 lb dose will provide slightly higher efficiency but also slightly higher hardness leakage and more frequent regeneration. The 16 lb dose should result in slightly softer (higher quality) water and less frequent regen cycles.

With the following settings, the system shows a 'gallons before regen' of about 1,100 which is resulting in a regen every 5-7 days.
I am wondering if I under-sized the softener and should have purchased 2.5 Cu Ft capacity unit to regen less often with higher efficiency.
I'll try increasing C to 48.

DF = GAL
VT = 5810
RF = dF1b
CT = Fd
C = 40
RC = 200
H = 28
RS = cr
BW =10
BD = 60
RR = 10
BF = 16
FM = t1.2
RE=OFF
VR=OFF

 

[Bannerman]

I had previously understood your actual hardness is 21 gpg. While it is recommended to add 2 gpg making the setting 23, I now see you have programmed 28. By using a higher number, the controller will calculate lower gallons to be delivered from the capacity that is programmed.

A larger softener can provide increased efficiency.

Example:
A 2 cuft softener to regenerate 60K grains would require 30 lbs/salt each cycle. 60K / 30 lbs = 2,000 grains/lb
A 2.5 cuft softener would require 20 lbs/salt to regenerate 60K grains capacity. 60K / 20 lbs = 3,000 grains/lb
A 3 cuft softener would require 18 lbs/salt to regenerate 60K grains capacity. 60K / 18 lbs = 3,333 grains/lb

The question is, is 60K capacity actually needed? Unless a particularly high flow rate is required, softeners are often sized to supply the household soft water requirements, while not needing to regenerate more frequently than 1X/week and while utilizing an efficient salt setting.

 

[Reach4]

With the following settings, the system shows a 'gallons before regen' of about 1,100 which is resulting in a regen every 5-7 days.

With 200 gallons per day, I compute 4.46 days, which would translate to 4 or 5 days typically. So your actual average daily consumption is less than 200 gallons. If we calculate with the same salt you have been using, the computation comes up with 5.95 days. That would be 5 or 6 days, which is closer to what you are seeing.

With your proposed new settings with C=48 and BF=21, at 200 gallons per day, you would expect 5.36 days. So about a day longer between regenerations. And since you use less than the 200 usually, you would typically add a day to the numbers you see now. Computing with 150 gallons per day, the calculation becomes 7.14 days.

I am wondering if I under-sized the softener and should have purchased 2.5 Cu Ft capacity unit to regen less often with higher efficiency.

Yes. The efficiency would not be a lot greater, but it would be greater. I figure the average inefficiency to be about 1/2 day worth, and 1/2 day is a bigger piece of 6 days than it is of 10 days.

I'll try increasing C to 48.

and BF to 21. Also add 1.25 gallons of water to the brine tank, which is the amount that the extra 5 minutes of BF will add on the next regen. So you will be using an extra 3.75 pounds of salt each regen, but you will be adding maybe a day between regens.

I am not sure how the controller handles the gallons remaining number when you make the change. Take a look before and after the reprogramming, and tell us. I can think how I would want it to act, but I think that is unlikely. I would like it to keep the same number of gallons remaining the same until the next regen unchanged. If that does not happen, I would be prepared to use the extra cycle button to make it regen earlier.

I had previously understood your actual hardness is 21 gpg. While it is recommended to add 2 gpg making the setting 23, I now see you have programmed 28.

See the compensation for high hardness.
http://www.terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/fleck-9100-sxt-programming-settings.60651/#post-450189 rmk9785e could monitor the residual hardness just before the softener is ready to regen to see if dropping the H number a tad is warranted. But if the water hardness is variable, you usually want to set it to handle the high end. That said, the H=28 may well have been too pessimistic, even taking the 1.2 factor into account. I forget if there was iron in the water.

 

[Bannerman]

As currently programed:
40,000 grains / 28 gpg = 1,428 gallons minus the reserve allowance.
All 1,428 / 200 gals est/day = ~7 days less reserve = 6 days.

If programmed for 25 grains hardness (1.2 X 21 gpg):
40K / 25 = 1,600 gals minus reserve

How many occupants in the house? (to estimate an appropriate reserve allowance and daily usage)

 

[Rmk9785e]

<SNIP>
With your proposed new settings with C=48 and BF=21, at 200 gallons per day, you would expect 5.36 days. So about a day longer between regenerations. And since you use less than the 200 usually, you would typically add a day to the numbers you see now. Computing with 150 gallons per day, the calculation becomes 7.14 days.
<SNIP> [I'll change C to 48]
and BF to 21. Also add 1.25 gallons of water to the brine tank, which is the amount that the extra 5 minutes of BF will add on the next regen. So you will be using an extra 3.75 pounds of salt each regen, but you will be adding maybe a day between regens.

I am not sure how the controller handles the gallons remaining number when you make the change. Take a look before and after the reprogramming, and tell us. I can think how I would want it to act, but I think that is unlikely. I would like it to keep the same number of gallons remaining the same until the next regen unchanged. If that does not happen, I would be prepared to use the extra cycle button to make it regen earlier.

As currently programed:
40,000 grains / 28 gpg = 1,428 gallons minus the reserve allowance.
All 1,428 / 200 gals est/day = ~7 days less reserve = 6 days.

If programmed for 25 grains hardness (1.2 X 21 gpg):
40K / 25 = 1,600 gals minus reserve

How many occupants in the house? (to estimate an appropriate reserve allowance and daily usage)

There are four adults in the house. I'll change H to 25, C to 48 and BF to 21 (and add 1.25 gallons of water). I'll then see if it displays a different # of gallons and if not, force a regen and report the new number,

 

[ditttohead]

Just force the regen regardless.

 

[Rmk9785e]

I was able to make changes when I visited the site this week. So here's the new configuration:

This morning the available capacity was 1,212. When I tried to test water after a regen, it turned blue as soon as I added the reagent powder without even a drop of the titrant solution. So I tested the supply water and it is showing much lower hardness of about 16-17. I understand that city water hardness can vary and we're OK with a little bit of hardness remaining after the water is softened but it seems like it is over softened, if that is even possible.

Diagnostics show the following:

Where do we go from here?

 

[Reach4]

Where do we go from here?

Celebrate for a while? Reduce H to maybe 19 or 20 for now? You can change H without going to master programming mode.

Another thing to consider would be go back to BF=6 and C=40.0 which would use a little less salt. However I thinking that letting it stay as it is for a while will be good. After all, you did give it an early regeneration during your changes. Give it a couple of months, and then review.

The PF number could be interesting after there have been several days of use since regen.

 

[Bannerman]

'H' remains set to 28?

 

[Bannerman]

Reduce H to maybe 19 or 20 for now?

He stated the actual hardness level as 21. I suggested setting 23 to allow for variance and you made an issue in #86 regarding the Compensation Factor for High Hardness which I then allowed for in #87 by calculating for '25' grains.

 

[Reach4]

He stated the actual hardness level as 21.

In reply #90 he updated that to 16 or 17. It sounded as if he was going to be keeping an eye on it some.

 

[Rmk9785e]

'H' remains set to 28?

That H was based upon previous test results and calculations. I had changed only C to 48 and BF to 21 before the regen.
I've now lowered hardness to 19 and the available volume displayed has gone up from 1,270 to 1,830. Based upon usage, this much usable volume should auto regen about 3 times a month which would be pretty good even if it consumes about 16 pounds of salt each time.
I suspect the 1,830 number is only an estimate of upcoming available capacity after next regen. Does that mean that it won't automatically regen until 1,830 gallons have been consumed, meaning that the last (1830-1270=) 560 gallons will pass through without being softened?
Unless advised otherwise, I'll let it run with these settings and watch resulting hardness periodically.

 

[Reach4]

Does that mean that it won't automatically regen until 1,830 gallons have been consumed,

It means that it will not bother checking at 2AM until 1830 gallons have been consumed. Then once it counts down to zero, perhaps early in the morning, it will wait until 2AM to regenerate. It leave the reserve, that you tell it or it calculates, to be able to handle that extra time before 2AM next rolls aroun

oes that mean that it won't automatically regen until 1,830 gallons have been consumed, meaning that the last (1830-1270=) 560 gallons will pass through without being softened?

No, it means that more gallons will be able to be processed if the hardness is actually lower. You told it C (which is in thousands of grains). It knows that each gallon consumes H grains of capacity.

 

[ditttohead]

Since you set the reserve capacity to CR the system will start to build a usage algorithm based on a 7 day calendar. it will average many weeks usage based on the 7 days and regenerate accordingly. The system will adjust the reserve regularly to accommodate changing water usage patterns so don't be surprised if you wake up in the morning and you have more water than the night before, this is simply the algorithm building itself.

 

[Rmk9785e]

We have a strange situation here. The water softener worked fine for a while and now it keeps draining continuously. What could have gone wrong?

 

[ditttohead]

PM sent

 

[Reach4]

We have a strange situation here. The water softener worked fine for a while and now it keeps draining continuously. What could have gone wrong?

Did the display say ERR 4?