Water Softener Drain - Do we need a Vent for a Floor Drain or ?

[-Jim-]

Hi Gents,

This is my first post and I'm an Electrician, and not a plumber, so please go easy on me. Thanks.

My Brother & I inherited the Cabin (actually a small house but we call it the Cabin) from my Mom, and it was built in 1979 across the road from Paul Lake in the interior of BC (Canada). We typically only use it for a couple of months a year in the summer; with a few long weekends here and there. The Water for the Cabin is pumped from the lake, and until recently was untreated, as my folks thought the water was "just fine". Anyway, after a couple Boil Water Advisories from the local health authorities quashed that myth (and my wife wouldn't go there partly because of the poor tasting, spots on everything, water "smell", etc.); I decided to put in some water treatment equipment (Filters, Softener, & UV Sterilizer). It works great => except for one issue.

The is no floor drain in the Pump Room. The Cabin is a slab on ground, and I'm amazed Code did not require floor drains in 1979 for Pump Rooms. (There is no floor drain in the entire basement which has a bathroom & a laundry room. See drawing attached. The Pump Room is under the stairs that lead up to the main floor.) The Water Softener requires a drain for regeneration discharge, and in case of malfunction causing an overflow situation. I was to install the treatment equipment and make certain the new system would function before my brother was to help tackle the Drain issue. (He too is an Electrician and not a plumber - and very wary of doing any plumbing.)

Everything functions well but for the temporary drain I used. It was some surplus pipe and I ran it along the floor into the shower in the basement bathroom. (The drain is only half inch flexible tubing but this is not the long term solution. It was to prove the system works.) After trying to use some old undocumented water /sewer piping from the previous Cabin that comes into the floor of the pump room (My grandfather build an earlier, much smaller version of the Cabin on the same lot in 1962), I've decided to look for a better alternative.

The main sewer stack (at least that's what I call it ) is in the wall of the basement bathroom with a clean out near the floor, (only the clean out is exposed.) and we know (because we dug out the front of the Cabin looking for the other end of the old undocumented water /sewer piping from the previous Cabin) where the main sewer line comes out from the Cabin, and goes into the holding tank. I am hoping the dotted line I put on the drawing represents something close to where it goes between those two points. I am planning to try to confirm it's location using a Fisher TW 82 HC that I can rent in nearby Kamloops next Wednesday when I am there. (This seems to be the only Line locator I can rent in town.)

The whole basement is finished except the floor of the pump room & garage which is concrete. (And no one will bug me if I poke a hole in that floor. Both of us are married so we get lots of advice, comments, etc...) So if the sewer line cuts under the pump room, I was thinking it wouldn't be too hard to put a floor drain in there, or a short standpipe. But do we need a Vent, or is there another solution I'm missing here?

I'd rather be cautious then cause some calamity later. You suggestions and comments are most welcomed.

Thanks for having such a cool site so folks like me can get a hand.

 

[Bannerman]

You should be asking your local building department as they are the authority for your area.

From experience, part of a plumbing vent's purpose is to ensure water is not siphoned out from the trap, thereby preventing sewer gas from entering the occupied space. As such, a vent connection is typically required within 3' of a trap. Since a floor drain in an unfinished basement is not usually located within 3' of a wall to contain a vent stack, the floor drain trap is not typically vented but a large diameter pipe and trap (ie: 3") is utilized for the floor drain. As there is little elevation difference between the trap and the horizontal sewer line, it would be unlikely that a siphon would ever occur and it would be near impossible to siphon out the water from a 3" trap.

Although you'll be using the drain for the softener discharge so it will be unlikely the trap will ever dry out, a 'trap primer' may still be required by code. This is typically a 1/4" poly line connected to a nearby faucet, to ensure a trickle of water is added to the trap whenever that faucet is utilized.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[-Jim-]

Hi Bannerman, thanks for the post.

As the Cabin was built to 1979 code, and this is a small DIY project that we aren't going to permit, I am more interested in the opinions and suggestions from the folks here on what will work, than trying to gain an opinion from someone at the Thompson / Nicola Regional District which is an unknown bureaucracy for us many miles away. (We live in Metro Vancouver.) We certainly don't want them to force us to upgrade the whole place to 2016 code. Besides, we don't know if that's possible (without tearing out the walls and /or finished floors) to put a drain in the pump room that meets current code.

So your suggestion of a Floor Drain with a 3" trap sounds doable which is great! In regards to a 'trap primer', I have looked at those as well but the only faucet in the pump room was designed to have a garden hose connected to it which would allow us to drain all of the water system outside the Cabin. That allows one to work on it, or winterize it in late fall. We have encountered dry traps from time to time (smelly!) in the spring after the Cabin has been locked up dormant all winter (November to about April) as we put RV antifreeze in them as insurance in case the heat (electric) goes out for a few days, as we don't want the traps to freeze and burst. My Dad, an Electrical Engineer came up with this ages ago, and we still do it today. I often wonder if it's a worthwhile practice. (Comments?)

However, instead of a 'trap primer'could we put something in the new Floor Drain like a SureSeal® for the Winter months (see link below)

http://www.rectorseal.com/sureseal-trap-seal/

Or should we try to adapt a 'trap primer' into the regular water flow?

Do you (or anyone else) have any experience with a Fisher TW 82 HC to find ABS Drains under slabs, or underground?

As always, any suggestions and comments are most welcomed.

Regards,

Jim

 

[Bannerman]

Whether or not you obtain a building permit is up to you. Any requirements to update generally only apply to those sections that are actually being worked on, not the entire building. Building code requirements are typically minimum standards to ensure safety so they need to be observed even if you are not planning to obtain a permit.

A trap primer is generally connected to a laundry tub or wash basin faucet or to the bowl fill tube in a toilet tank. Water does not flow to the trap continuously but only when those faucets are run or the toilet is flushed. A primer will not keep water in the trap when the building is not occupied over extended periods so other methods must be employed as you have experienced.

Does the RV antifreeze have a lower evaporation factor so it remains in the traps for an extended period? If so, that would appear to be a reasonable method to ensure toxic and potentially explosive methane gas does not enter and accumulate in your cabin when no one is around.

 

[Bannerman]

While you mention of being able to drain the water system when the building is unoccupied, remember that the the softener will and will need to contain water to keep the resin hydrated. I have not seen any info on using RV antifreeze in a water softener.

 

[Reach4]

However, instead of a 'trap primer'could we put something in the new Floor Drain like a SureSeal® for the Winter months (see link below)

http://www.rectorseal.com/sureseal-trap-seal/

I was thinking big cork, but that does the job too.

 

[-Jim-]

While you mention of being able to drain the water system when the building is unoccupied, remember that the the softener will and will need to contain water to keep the resin hydrated. I have not seen any info on using RV antifreeze in a water softener.

I have been thinking of this as well and I don't plan to put antifreeze into the softener (yuk) but possible keep the water level a bit higher than normal to allow for any evaporation. The pump room is heated slightly in winter to about 4 or 5 degrees Celsius as are the bathrooms. We do check on the Cabin regularly in winter, and a neighbor lives year round next door and does so as well. According to what I could find on the web:

"For saltwater that’s as saturated as it can possibly get (i.e. there’s no way to dissolve any more salt in it no matter how hard you tried), the freezing point is -21.1 degrees Celsius."

So I figure even if the power goes off for days the softener should be okay as it's rarely less than -21.1 degrees Celsius at the lake. But you never know => stuff happens.

Thanks for thinking of things I may have overlooked.

 

[-Jim-]

I was thinking big cork, but that does the job too.

I like a little out of the box / cost effective solutions!

Thanks.

 

[Bannerman]

"For saltwater that’s as saturated as it can possibly get (i.e. there’s no way to dissolve any more salt in it no matter how hard you tried), the freezing point is -21.1 degrees Celsius."

While water in the brine tank will be saturated with 3 lbs salt per gallon, the resin tank will be filled with fresh water. Even if you were to halt the brine cycle just as the air check valve in the brine tank closed (just as no more brine will be drawn), the brine with the resin tank will not be saturated as fresh water is mixed with the brine as the brine is being drawn.

With regard to the new floor drain, while the one way valve may work for that drain, precautions will continue to be needed for the other drains within the cabin.

 

[-Jim-]

Thanks for pointing that out. I never thought of the resin tank .

I don't see a workaround for that though. I think we'll just have to risk it . I wonder what other folks do in cold climates with lightly used cabins (or houses) that have softeners.

 

[Bannerman]

As an alternative to installing a floor drain, you could consider running the softener drain line overhead to the laundry standpipe. The softener drain is pressurized by the cabin's water system during regeneration so the drain can be elevated and run a substantial distance, depending on your water system pressure. It is recommended to increase the drain line size to 3/4" or 1" if the run distance is greater than 15'. You could also increase the water system pressure if the pump switch is set to a low setting.

At the drain standpipe, it is recommended to install an air-gap to separate the softener drain from the sewage line. An air-gap will reduce the potential for cross contamination to the softener and should be used even if utilizing a floor drain.

Of course, this means of drainage would not address brine tank overflow concerns as any leakage would flow by gravity. Brine tank overflow is a rarity especially as most brine tanks now incorporate a safety float and valve to shut off fill flow if the water unintentionally reaches a specific high level.

 

[-Jim-]

I did consider running the drain line into the basement bathroom (but if I went that far the Standpipe would be just a wall away) but dismissed it for the same reason you noted - the gravity overflow wouldn't be taken care of -even though there is a float shut off in place and I'd still be cutting holes in places (wife acceptance factor ). I am planning to have an Air Gap in any design used.

I'm hoping others will chime in to support the Floor Drain, or offer another alternative or suggestions - as well as any comments regarding using a Fisher TW 82 HC to find ABS Drains under slabs, or underground? Or similar devices.

Thanks for the assist.

 

[thewatersoftenerblog.com]

Hi Gents,

This is my first post and I'm an Electrician, and not a plumber, so please go easy on me. Thanks.

My Brother & I inherited the Cabin (actually a small house but we call it the Cabin) from my Mom, and it was built in 1979 across the road from Paul Lake in the interior of BC (Canada). We typically only use it for a couple of months a year in the summer; with a few long weekends here and there. The Water for the Cabin is pumped from the lake, and until recently was untreated, as my folks thought the water was "just fine". Anyway, after a couple Boil Water Advisories from the local health authorities quashed that myth (and my wife wouldn't go there partly because of the poor tasting, spots on everything, water "smell", etc.); I decided to put in some water treatment equipment (Filters, Softener, & UV Sterilizer). It works great => except for one issue.

The is no floor drain in the Pump Room. The Cabin is a slab on ground, and I'm amazed Code did not require floor drains in 1979 for Pump Rooms. (There is no floor drain in the entire basement which has a bathroom & a laundry room. See drawing attached. The Pump Room is under the stairs that lead up to the main floor.) The Water Softener requires a drain for regeneration discharge, and in case of malfunction causing an overflow situation. I was to install the treatment equipment and make certain the new system would function before my brother was to help tackle the Drain issue. (He too is an Electrician and not a plumber - and very wary of doing any plumbing.)

Everything functions well but for the temporary drain I used. It was some surplus pipe and I ran it along the floor into the shower in the basement bathroom. (The drain is only half inch flexible tubing but this is not the long term solution. It was to prove the system works.) After trying to use some old undocumented water /sewer piping from the previous Cabin that comes into the floor of the pump room (My grandfather build an earlier, much smaller version of the Cabin on the same lot in 1962), I've decided to look for a better alternative.

The main sewer stack (at least that's what I call it ) is in the wall of the basement bathroom with a clean out near the floor, (only the clean out is exposed.) and we know (because we dug out the front of the Cabin looking for the other end of the old undocumented water /sewer piping from the previous Cabin) where the main sewer line comes out from the Cabin, and goes into the holding tank. I am hoping the dotted line I put on the drawing represents something close to where it goes between those two points. I am planning to try to confirm it's location using a Fisher TW 82 HC that I can rent in nearby Kamloops next Wednesday when I am there. (This seems to be the only Line locator I can rent in town.)

The whole basement is finished except the floor of the pump room & garage which is concrete. (And no one will bug me if I poke a hole in that floor. Both of us are married so we get lots of advice, comments, etc...) So if the sewer line cuts under the pump room, I was thinking it wouldn't be too hard to put a floor drain in there, or a short standpipe. But do we need a Vent, or is there another solution I'm missing here?

I'd rather be cautious then cause some calamity later. You suggestions and comments are most welcomed.

Thanks for having such a cool site so folks like me can get a hand.

You don't need a vent for the floor drain just make sure there is an air gap approximately 1 1/2" from the drain line to floor. I would not put RV anti freeze in the softener. A heavy brine solution would work fine but I would take the softener control valve off and siphon the water in the tank down to the resin bed, then replace the control valve.

 

[-Jim-]

Hi Gents,

I went to the Cabin as planned on Monday, and United Rentals called to say they had a Fisher TW-82 Line Tracer returned at noon on Tuesday. Even though Fisher's Web Support said I should use a Sonde transmitter ( http://fisherlab.com/industrial/fisher-SONDE-signal-transmitter.htm ) when I went to United Rentals their Kit didn't have one, nor did they have one in the store. And the Counterperson had never even heard of one.

I decided to take a gamble ($115 per day plus taxes) that it would function without the Sonde, using just my snake connected to the Transmitter; and I think it did. I say "I think" because I didn't have time to dig up any lines under the concrete floor to prove they were there, so that will have to wait for my next trip. I did feed the snake outside to where my brother & I had dug out the main sewer line where it connects to the Holding Tank. The Fisher TW-82 seemed to follow that line to near the Tank.



Here's where the line crosses the Pump Room. I use some black spray paint to mark the concrete.

 

[-Jim-]

And here is the revised basement drawing. The gaps are areas where I didn't trace the line due to objects (like the Softener, Beds, etc.) or interference in the signal (like near the outside wall where the line turns sharply).



I also traced some 1 1/2" lines from an old installation. I lost them when the Fisher TW-82 indicated they were buried beyond about 5 feet deep outside. It only took me a couple hours to do this, and I returned the TW-82 to United Rentals before 5:00 PM. The Counterperson (Vince) gave me $29 off the normal rental cost.

I'd recommend the Fisher TW-82 (and United Rentals) for anyone needing to find buried ABS pipes to about 4 feet deep. (Perhaps the Sonde would help if you needed to look deeper.)

I bought the trap, pipes, and drain from a plumbing supply company as Home Depot only had about half of what I needed. I'm going to put in a 3 inch Floor drain as recommended, but that will have to wait until the next trip.

Any tips on busting up the concrete and installing this drain would be appreciated. Thanks.