Water softener and iron filter sanity check, before I purchase

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Mtriton8

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Hello all!

I'm about to purchase a water softener and iron filter for my new house, and I wanted to double check with the experts here to make sure I've got the right system. We have fairly hard water (21.5 gpg), and a bit of iron (0.07 ppm) and sulfur (65.6 ppm) so my goal is to get nice, soft water without the iron and sulfur.

The solution I've come up with:
  • For iron:
    • Fleck 2510 2.0 cu.ft Greensand filtering system, 10-12 GPM flow, 12x48 tank
  • For water softener:
    • Fleck 2510SXT 64,000 grain, 2.0 cu.ft system
Initially I spec'd out a dual tank 9100SXT, but now that I've got an iron filter, I don't think that makes much sense. Does this system seem like it fits appropriately? I landed on a greensand filter because if I don't filter out the iron, I'll have to regen the softener every 4 days and that just seems like a waste of salt.

Apologies for the wall-o-data below, I don't know which is the pertinent information and which isn't!

Private well:
  • approximately 660' deep
  • 2500 gallon storage tank, 85 gallon pressure tank
  • 20GPM shallow pump feeding the 85 gallon tank
My house:
  • 5 people, 4 full bathrooms
  • Septic tank rated at 750 gal/day
My water (from KAR labs)
  • CaCO3:
    • Hardness: 21.5 gpg (369 mg/L)
    • Alkalinity: 347 mg/L
    • Bicarbonate: 344 mg/L
    • Carbonate: 3.23 mg/L
  • Iron: 0.07 mg/L
  • pH: 8.0
  • TDS: 700 mg/L
  • Magnesium: 58.2 mg/L
  • Calcium: 51.7 mg/L
  • Sulfur: 65.6 mg/L
  • Sulfate: 193 mg/L
  • Sodium: 60 mg/L
  • EDIT: Manganese: None found -- (report says < 0.005mg/L)

Thoughts/comments/criticisms welcome!

Thank you!
 
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Reach4

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I landed on a greensand filter because if I don't filter out the iron, I'll have to regen the softener every 4 days and that just seems like a waste of salt.
Your softer sizing is reasonable. With an iron filter could also consider a 13" x 54" 2.50 cu. ft. ( 80,000 grains ) unit or even a 14 x 65. Those would be even more salt-efficient, and the backwashing of the of even the 14 x 65 softener would be less than for the 12 inch iron+H2S filter.

The softener could handle that 0.07 ppm of iron easily. You did not post manganese. A softener would not not handle the H2S, however.

I don't know how greensand compares with Katalox Light in H2S removal. My iron+sulfur backwashing filter uses Centaur Carbon media, and it works great for me.
 

ditttohead

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Greensand typically does not compare to KL, the amount of manganese dioxide ore is far greater in KL than GS. Since you have atmospheric, have you considered using that tank to oxygenate the water? A simple spray bar can get rid of a lot of problems. Of sourse this will cause the tank to get dirty but that is easily cleaned occasionally. I used to be a fan of the 2510 but not so much lately.
 

Mtriton8

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Your softer sizing is reasonable. With an iron filter could also consider a 13" x 54" 2.50 cu. ft. ( 80,000 grains ) unit or even a 14 x 65. Those would be even more salt-efficient, and the backwashing of the of even the 14 x 65 softener would be less than for the 12 inch iron+H2S filter.

The softener could handle that 0.07 ppm of iron easily. You did not post manganese. A softener would not not handle the H2S, however.

I don't know how greensand compares with Katalox Light in H2S removal. My iron+sulfur backwashing filter uses Centaur Carbon media, and it works great for me.

Sorry, I edited my original post, there was no manganese found (report says < 0.005mg/L).

I too was considering going up to the 2.5cu. ft. softener, it's only about $100-ish more.. My understanding is that if I went with an 80k, that sounds like about 1,125 salt/year right? Please tell me if my calculations are off:
  • 5 * 75 = 375
  • 375 * 21.5 = 8,062.5 grains per day
  • 8,062.5 * 7 = 56,000 grains per week
  • 1 cu.ft resin regenerated @ 10lbs of salt = 27,000 capacity
If I de-rate an 80k softener by about 15% that puts me at 68k capacity, which means I'll have to regenerate about every 8 days. Every 8 days I'll use 25 lbs of salt, which means (365/8) * 25lbs = approx 1,125 salt/year. Is that correct?

Also, regarding the iron filter, I was told that any amount of iron that makes it into the water softener will slowly turn into ferric iron, which can ruin the resin. Does that hold true for even 0.07mg/L of iron?
 

Mtriton8

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Greensand typically does not compare to KL, the amount of manganese dioxide ore is far greater in KL than GS. Since you have atmospheric, have you considered using that tank to oxygenate the water? A simple spray bar can get rid of a lot of problems. Of sourse this will cause the tank to get dirty but that is easily cleaned occasionally.

Ah that's interesting, I think there actually might be a spray bar inside of the tank, I'm not entirely sure. When the pump kicks on, it sounds like it's spraying inside.

I didn't really realize there were other media for filtering iron.. how often do you have to regenerate Katalax Light? And what do you use to regenerate it? Is it the same stuff that you use for greensand? (that purple powder stuff).

From just my little bit of reading on KL, it sounds pretty good.. is there a reason I *shouldn't* go with it? Seems to be better than greensand in every way.

I used to be a fan of the 2510 but not so much lately.

That doesn't sound good .. how come?
 

Reach4

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5 * 75 = 375
Your math is good. Usually 60 gallons per person is used for the calculations. Remember the hose spigots would not normally get softened water. For drinking, you might consider drinking the output of your iron filter if you put one in. The magnesium and calcium are good for drinking.

I would go with 6 pounds/cuft giving 20000 grains of softening. 8 gives 24000.
Also, regarding the iron filter, I was told that any amount of iron that makes it into the water softener will slowly turn into ferric iron, which can ruin the resin. Does that hold true for even 0.07mg/L of iron?
No.
 

Mtriton8

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Your math is good. Usually 60 gallons per person is used for the calculations. Remember the hose spigots would not normally get softened water. For drinking, you might consider drinking the output of your iron filter if you put one in. The magnesium and calcium are good for drinking.

Okay, bear with me, very new to this. If I understand what you're saying correctly, you're saying that dumping 6lbs of salt per cu.ft into the brine tank should give my resin about a 20k grain filtering capacity per cu.ft. Which would de-rate it to a 50k (20k*2.5) instead of an 80k. So I would need to regen about every 6 days (using the 75gallon number) or 7 days (using 60gallon for calc)

That would mean I would require a total of 15lbs of salt per regeneration cycle (6lbs*2.5cu.ft). 15lbs every 7 days would be approx. 780 lbs of salt per year. Is that correct?
 

ditttohead

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The 2510 was an amazing valve on paper when it was introduced decades ago. It has a few minor design issues that I am not a fan of. The extra unnecessary O-rings, the adapter plate, the neck o-ring retainer (we stock a lot of that item in particular), the drain assembly especially when the flow rate exceeds 7 gpm...
 

Mtriton8

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Okay, based on all the stuff I've learned here and my research yesterday, I'm going to go with:
  • iron/sulfur filtering:
    • KL Light
    • Fleck 2510SXT AIO, 13x54 vortech tank, 2.5 cu.ft, w/ 3/4" stainless bypass
    • no cleaning agent initially
  • water softening:
I'll use 6lbs for the salt setting, regening every 6-7 days.

Any issue with the salt I've linked? It seems to be fairly popular, although sometimes that doesn't mean anything..

I'm hoping the programming on these things is relatively straightforward... haven't looked into it yet, will cross that bridge when I come to it. :)
 

Bannerman

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Fleck 2510SXT AIO
Are you planning to use air injection initially or only consider that as an option down the road as an alternate to chlorine or hydrogen peroxide if needed?

Are you ignoring Ditttohead's comments on the 2510 valve? Perhaps he will recommend an alternate control valve.

He may also offer further comments in the choice of a Vortec underbed.
 

ditttohead

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I would avoid the Vortech tank.
The 2510 with KL and a 13" tank? 12 GPM. This valve can do that but... pushing it. It also requires the use of the brass external DLFC, not the best design.
Why have 2 different sized bypasses?
 

Mtriton8

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Are you planning to use air injection initially or only consider that as an option down the road?

I suppose so? .. I thought KL Light required air injection, or at least the valve itself required air injection for it to work. Is there an alternative?


Are you ignoring Ditttohead's comments on the 2510 valve? Perhaps he will recommend an alternate control valve.

lol no, we've been PMing. We're discussing other valves :)
 

Mtriton8

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I would avoid the Vortech tank.
The 2510 with KL and a 13" tank? 12 GPM. This valve can do that but... pushing it. It also requires the use of the brass external DLFC, not the best design.
Why have 2 different sized bypasses?

Regarding the bypass valves, that's just the only vale that Mid Atlantic offered with their product.. I don't see an option to change to a 1" bypass valve. Same with the Vortech tank. That was the only choice. I was guessing that was why it was slightly more expensive. From what I've read, the vortech tanks are popular with the distributors, not so much with the consumers...

Frankly the only reason I've looking at mid atlantic is because KL media is included in the price... seems like that's a $450 savings for 2.5 cu.ft. Unless there's a better place to purchase the media?

If I can't get a 5800 series valve, is there a better alternative for KL with a 13" tank?

EDIT: or maybe a better question, do I *need* a 13" tank? Or should I go for a 12" tank for the KL Light filtering
 
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Bannerman

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The equipment is assembled to your specifications from off the shelf components. Many dealers offer pre-configured systems typical to what they predict will satisfy the majority of client requirements and are willing to pay. Although something may not be listed on their web site, does not mean you can't ask them to quote on your specific requirements.

MA obviously offer 1" SS bypasses as they are offering a 1" on the softener which utilizes essentially the same valve.

If you are intending this as a DIY project, that would reduce the control valve models available. Clack moved away from the DIY market some years ago whereas Fleck are now doing so with their latest models.
 

ditttohead

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Air injection is beneficial. I am not a fan of the air injection valves even though we sell a lot of them. They have their quirks.
KL can use H2o2, air, chlorine, pot perm etc. It is sometimes needed. Unfortunately the literature makes it sound like it is almost never needed. Water chemistry is far too complex to go over here but in general, pH, DO and ORP are good indicators of how well KL or other manganese dioxide ore based medias will work.
 

rdsnake

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Regarding the bypass valves, that's just the only vale that Mid Atlantic offered with their product.. I don't see an option to change to a 1" bypass valve. Same with the Vortech tank. That was the only choice. I was guessing that was why it was slightly more expensive. From what I've read, the vortech tanks are popular with the distributors, not so much with the consumers...

Frankly the only reason I've looking at mid atlantic is because KL media is included in the price... seems like that's a $450 savings for 2.5 cu.ft. Unless there's a better place to purchase the media?

If I can't get a 5800 series valve, is there a better alternative for KL with a 13" tank?

EDIT: or maybe a better question, do I *need* a 13" tank? Or should I go for a 12" tank for the KL Light filtering


I ordered the KL setup from Mid Atlantic. Like you, it was the only filter that had everything packaged together which I liked. Also, you don't need a Iron Filter with only .07PPM of iron. I think my water was just shy of 1PPM and the softener couldn't pull the Iron out on it's own.

However, it will help with the sulfur smell and filter any small debris out with the air injection head. Also, I noticed when filling up a bath tub or any other large body of water, you'll notice a bunch of air bubbles in the water. Not a huge deal but it was something I noticed. Also, when Mid Atlantic says it takes 2 weeks to ship....it takes 2 weeks. The price also seems to bounce around $995 or $1100. Not sure why this was but I waited until it was $995. You can't buy all the pieces separately for cheaper than that. I've tired. lol
 
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