Water regulator valve, can I get rid of it?

[Patrick D Garez]

Hi to all,

Our hot water valve regulator is failing (deduced because cold water pressure is fine, however, the further I go towards the hot water side of our shower, faucets, washing mashing the pressure drops dramatically. All of our water release mechanisms are the temperature blend type, not separate hot and cold water).

I live (own) on the 37th floor of a condo. Building was built within the last 20 years or so.

We purchased the condo from the original owner who had installed water regulators (building maintenance confirmed that these were not installed at the point of construction or by the building which therefore removes their responsibility to maintain or repair).

Prior to the failing valve, the water pressure was already a little too low (livable but not ideal), so I am thinking of removing the failing valve all together (or if possible adjusting the failing valve so that it is essentially in the completely open position [not sure if this is an option].

I am aware that water regulators not only serve to reduce water (cost savings) but also to reduce pressure, coming in from city lines, that might be high enough to erode the plumbing system, over time.

Isn't the pressure already reduced because my water has to travel up (or down if we have a tower) from or to the 37th floor. As such would I not be risking very little by simply removing the valve and replacing it with a straight pipe? Is there a way to keep the valve in place and simply "opening" the valve up in such a way as to eliminate all restriction?

I am not a master DIY'er but having owned a house prior to the condo, I did handle some mundane DIY tasks in order to save a little cash, so can work my way around a small project like this (especially because the valves are easily accessible.)

Any help and advice that you might be able to offer would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you, all, very much in advance.

Patrick

 

[Reach4]

I am aware that water regulators not only serve to reduce water (cost savings) but also to reduce pressure, coming in from city lines, that might be high enough to erode the plumbing system.

Isn't the pressure already reduced because my water has to travel up (or down if we have a tower) from or to the 37th floor. As such would I not be risking very little by simply removing the valve and replacing it with a straight pipe? Is there a way to keep the valve in place and simply "opening" the valve up in such a way as to eliminate all restriction?

I am not sure what the model number is. Is that N55B-N1
Does your PRV look like this? https://www.watts.com/products/plum...lves/water-pressure-reducing-valves/lfn55b-m1

Note there is a strainer that could need cleaning. There a repair kit also probably.
If the strainer is blocking flow, opening up by setting the pressure lower (CCW I think) won't do much.

Anyway, you are not just seeing city water pressure. There is one or more pumps involved in lifting the city water to you.

A PRV would usually supply both the hot and cold sides. If you have one for the hot side only, that is unusual.

 

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[Patrick D Garez]

Hi Reach

I am not sure what the model number is. Is that N55B-N1
Does your PRV look like this? https://www.watts.com/products/plum...lves/water-pressure-reducing-valves/lfn55b-m1

Note there is a strainer that could need cleaning. There a repair kit also probably.
If the strainer is blocking flow, opening up by setting the pressure lower (CCW I think) won't do much.

Anyway, you are not just seeing city water pressure. There is one or more pumps involved in lifting the city water to you.

Hi Reach,

Thank you very much for taking the time to respond.

I believe that the model # WATTS LFN55BM1 but can't be sure. I did watch a repair kit video on youtube and it looks fairly straight forward. I figured that there was a pump pushing the water up.

Your mention of it leads me to believe that the pressure (without any regulation) might be detrimentally high.

The only thing that lays doubt on this is that the building maintenance guy's immediate notice of the regulators as not part of the building which would lead me to believe that there are units without regulators.

I believe that the previous owner installed them thinking that water usage would be responsibility (cost bearing) of each unit, whereas, in our case the building takes care of the water total water cost. While I am fully aware of the value of water and that it should not be wasted, if it is ultimately unnecessary and results in lousy water pressure why not just remove it all together.

I will look into the dirty strainer issue.

The fun never ends! =)

Thank you again!

 

[Reach4]

I believe that the previous owner installed them thinking that water usage would be responsibility (cost bearing) of each unit, whereas, in our case the building takes care of the water total water cost. While I am fully aware of the value of water and that it should not be wasted, if it is ultimately unnecessary and results in lousy water pressure why not just remove it all together.

Usually it is not water-saving but the need to protect appliances from having to deal with more pressure than they are designed for.

Good luck on finding a clogged screen. An old toothbrush might fix that right up once you get in there.

A garden hose thread pressure gauge would be useful for troubleshooting. On the hot side, that could attach at a washing machine connection or at the water heater drain valve. The question I would have is does the pressure rise back up significantly after hot water use, or is the pressure low. A consideration is that after you use hot water is that as you use hot water, cool water goes into the water heater. After you stop, the water in the WH expands. There should be an expansion tank keeping the water pressure down by giving the heating water a place to expand. While checking things, you might as well check that your expansion tank is working properly.

Is maintaining that PRV (pressure reducing valve) your responsibility?

 

[LLigetfa]

I would first check what the water pressure is one at a time on both the hot and the cold. You can do this using a garden hose thread gauge tapped in to where the washing machine is, assuming there is one. You might not need that regulator at all. If the pressure is above 80 PSI, then the building maintenance would be responsible to regulate it. My guess is a previous owner added that for scald prevention (or reduction since it does not actually prevent it). If you need to mitigate scald risk, you could add a tempering valve in its place that would blend some cold in with the hot to reduce the risk of scalding.

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

Might consider also the liability of causing a leak in a condo building on the 37th floor. But all of the parts inside those pressure regulating valves are maintainable and replaceable. And there could likely be a very good reason they're installed. Also, sometimes the building maintenance guy won't really have accurate info. Just because one unit or several don't have those valves doesn't mean they weren't installed originally. The valves also can be adjusted to maximum pressure #70, but still limit spikes of really high pressure.

 

[Patrick D Garez]

Hi Reach and Lligetfa,

When we try to run the washing machine, using a hot setting, the water trickles out, so testing with a gauge would result in nothing more than a dribble strength psi.

Unfortunately, the building maintenance guy (pointing out that these were not installed by the building) advised that these regulators were out of his realm of responsibility.

I am waiting on building management to respond to an email confirming that these were not installed by the building and that not all apartments have them. If this is what they return with then I believe that I can safely assume that the regulators are not critical and can therefore be removed.

The garden hose gauge idea, however, will be useful if I decide to remove. I want extra pressure but not at the cost of appliances etc.

Thank you both again for the wisdom and advice.

 

[Patrick D Garez]

Might consider also the liability of causing a leak in a condo building on the 37th floor. But all of the parts inside those pressure regulating valves are maintainable and replaceable. And there could likely be a very good reason they're installed. Also, sometimes the building maintenance guy won't really have accurate info. Just because one unit or several don't have those valves doesn't mean they weren't installed originally. The valves also can be adjusted to maximum pressure #70, but still limit spikes of really high pressure.

Hi Tuttles, just when I had sort of made up my mind =). You are right, maybe the best course of action is to repair or replace. I don't need to risk any problems. I will see if I can clean off the tag to get the exact model and find a repair kit.

First step will be to check the filter and see if maybe that is the only part needing replacement.

Do you believe that if I loosen or tighten at the stem that I can at least improve the pressure temporarily?

 

[Reach4]

Your picture shows two PRVs. Is one carrying only water that will not go through the water heater? Or will the water to the WH have gone through both PRVs?

 

[Patrick D Garez]

Attached is a pic of the entire space where the regulators are housed.

I would have to do some further digging around (not that my condo is palacial) but unless it is tucked away somewhere (behind the AC unit or somewhere else - note that I have never dealt with a regulator/water heater issue so this is new to me) the only thing that I can think is that the water is heated by one of those wall mounted (no water hold) heaters rather than a reservoir type water heater.

I will have to track the pipes, when I get home to determine where everything leads and whether only one pipe leads to the heating unit or both.

Your questions and advise are helping me get a handle on the system as a whole. =) I wish I could answer now, though.

Thank you.

 

[James Henry]

Do not try to rebuild your PRV, buy a new one. after you install it and before you adjust it, call maintenance and ask the if the water booster pumps are running at the the recommended pressure. You are a slave to what ever pressure the booster pumps are running at, sometimes a breaker trips and you will have no water pressure. after all is said and done the next time you loose pressure ask maintenance if the pumps are down.

 

[Patrick D Garez]

Hi James, thank you very much for the sage advice. I will go new, if necessary. Again, thank you for taking the time.

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

2 Things jump out at me in your second photo. While I'm not an expert in heating.. Those 2 lines look like they're feeding water to a heat exchanger. IE the water is potentially heating water pumped thru the heat exchanger in a furnace. Can you verify that those two pipes are 100% your domestic hot and cold water or could they be a heating / cooling system? Or is that Trane supplying the domestic hot water via a heat exchanger? I see one arrow on one of the PRVs is pointed Left towards the Trane.. What direction is the other arrow on the lower PRV?

2nd issue is they're connected to CPVC pipe which you must handle with extreme caution to prevent it from cracking, splitting, breaking, disintegrating, and a few other words that cause leaking. The 2 PRVs have unions to remove them... Whatever you do to the piping.. Do not let the CPVC hold the weight of the PRVs, any turning of the pipe. If you need to unthread anything Do not allow twisting energy to transfer to the CPVC, use a backing wrench to prevent that. If in the event that the CPVC needs repair, read the instructions on the cement(glue) very carefully and allow lots of time for curing(start that process in the morning).

 

[Jadnashua]

FWIW, even with a trickle, the pressure actually is the same. Think fire hose versus soda straw sized piping...the pressure from the same supply is identical, it's just that the volume available will differ considerably.

It's hard to say exactly what you have and why.

On taller buildings, they tend to use a pump to push water to a tank on the higher floors or roof which then acts like a water tower you may see out in the country rather than constantly relying strictly on a pump running. So, then, it would depend on how tall the building is, and where the tank is relative to you. The water pressure you'd get from just gravity will change by ~0.43#/foot of elevation change. So, if the tank was 100' above you, the pressure would be 43# just from the gravity without the pump, but they'd have to pump it up there first!

One comment, though, if that closet has any burner in it for heating, you don't really want to store paint cans in there, or at least anything that is volatile that could ignite. Latex based paints would likely be okay, but the heat may decrease any remaining shelf life.

 

[Patrick D Garez]

Hi Tuttles, thank you very much for taking the time to both review my pictures, offer advice and warnings. This little project is way beyond my capabilities, especially given your last warning. As a complete novice, I could cause far more damage and cost than is necessary and likely above what it would cost me to have a professional look it over and perform any repairs. I am very grateful to you for your help and kindness. I will do my best to update this thread once I have a firm understanding of the problem and it's solution.

 

[Patrick D Garez]

FWIW, even with a trickle, the pressure actually is the same. Think fire hose versus soda straw sized piping...the pressure from the same supply is identical, it's just that the volume available will differ considerably.

It's hard to say exactly what you have and why.

On taller buildings, they tend to use a pump to push water to a tank on the higher floors or roof which then acts like a water tower you may see out in the country rather than constantly relying strictly on a pump running. So, then, it would depend on how tall the building is, and where the tank is relative to you. The water pressure you'd get from just gravity will change by ~0.43#/foot of elevation change. So, if the tank was 100' above you, the pressure would be 43# just from the gravity without the pump, but they'd have to pump it up there first!

One comment, though, if that closet has any burner in it for heating, you don't really want to store paint cans in there, or at least anything that is volatile that could ignite. Latex based paints would likely be okay, but the heat may decrease any remaining shelf life.

Hi Jad, such a cool group on this site, taking time out of your days to answer some noob in Miami. As mentioned to Tuttles, when I thought that this would be a simple switch etc, it clearly is far beyond my very limited talents in this arena. I also really appreciate the heads up on the paint. I don't believe that there is a naked flame but rather that the heating unit is electric. Nevertheless, the shelf life advice is very useful. Thank you very much for your sage advice and, once again, your time.