Water pressure trouble shooting

[pmfleisch]

I have a Red-Jacket submersible pump - 150' deep in a 220' well - water level is 108'. It was replaced in 2004.

80 gal Pentair SP-18 pressure tank - replaced in 2010. It isn't waterlogged - I know that from when we had to replace it because of the busted bladder in 2010!

Last couple of weeks pressure has dropped significantly. The pressure switch was working between 40 and 60 psi. Now it reads 30 PSI pretty consistantly. I've checked when pressure is 30 PSI and the pump is on. And I've checked when the pressure is 30PSI and the pump is off, but it's usually on.

I am troubleshooting it and was looking for direction or things to check.

I tried turning the nut in the pressure switch and it didn't make a difference. I bypassed the pressure switch and that didn't raise pressure above 32 PSI.

I tried shutting off power to see what would happen when pressure dropped lower and if it would refill. When I came down to check about an hour later, there was air escaping from the tank and PSI read 0. I turned power back on and about 30 minutes later it's reading 20 PSI and the pump is still on.

Any help or direction is greatly appreciated.

 

[Reach4]

I tried shutting off power to see what would happen when pressure dropped lower and if it would refill. When I came down to check about an hour later, there was air escaping from the tank and PSI read 0.

Air was escaping from the pressure tank??? Is that what you meant to say? Is the PSI=0 the air pressure or water pressure?

If the pump is running, and you cannot build water pressure, either the pump is bad, you are out of water, or you have a hole in a pipe. That would be true regardless of the state of the pressure tank I think.

 

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[Boycedrilling]

If I had a customer call with your symptoms, I would put an amp meter on the wire if and check how many amps the pump is drawing. That would tell me if the pump is running dry or if there is a leak in the drop pipe. I would also check to see what flow you have at the 30 psi.

You've probably got a hole in the drop pipe big enough to keep the pump from building enough pressure to shut off. It is at least 12 years old. When the pump was replaced in 2004, was the drop pipe replaced?

 

[pmfleisch]

To Reach 4: Yes, air was coming out of what I'm assuming is the recharge port on the side of the tank. It's under the pressure gauge and it's the only place I see where you could add/remove air. My assumption is that when there was no water in there that the pressure that usually keeps the valve shut wasn't there and so air could escape.

Pump is running and I can't build pressure - that much I'm certain of... at least that's really what seems like is happening.

I did try adding a little air into the tank just to see if I could build up pressure and that didn't seem to make any difference.

Sounds like a bad pump. I have three questions on a bad pump - is 13 years a reasonable life expectancy for the pump? Is there a way I can test the pump other than what I'm already doing? Is this something a solid handy guy can do? I've trenched and plumbed a basement bathroom and passed inspection. I'm just a little intimidated by plumbing that is 100' in the ground.



To Boyce drilling: I'll dig out my amp meter. What should I look for there?

The replacement was before I lived in the house - it did note "pump set 150', 140' PVC" No idea if that means it was new or not. I'll try calling the installer to see what records they have.


As always, thank you for the guidance. This is an amazing place.

 

[Reach4]

To Reach 4: Yes, air was coming out of what I'm assuming is the recharge port on the side of the tank. It's under the pressure gauge and it's the only place I see where you could add/remove air. My assumption is that when there was no water in there that the pressure that usually keeps the valve shut wasn't there and so air could escape.

You may have a galvanized tank rather than the diaphragm/bladder tanks, which are more common. The common pressure tanks usually have the air precharge valve on the top rather than the side.

You might post a photo of your tank. That could offer useful info.

Edit: I see you have the fiberglass version of a galvanized tank. http://www.wellmate.com/en-US/produ...ts/side-port-air-water-tanks/sideport-series/

The tank is not the problem.

 

[Cacher_Chick]

A less technical diagnosis would be to open the well cap and look and listen down the hole. If the pipe is leaking above the water line, or the seal has blown out of the pitless adapter, you will may be able to see or hear the water spraying.

 

[Boycedrilling]

In the 1980's Red Jacket manufactured their own motors. By the time they were sold to ITT, the would have quit making their own motors. Is there a control box on the wall? If so it will tell the horsepower of the motor along with the full load and service factor amps of the motor. Take the cover off the control box Or the pressure switch. Clamp the amp meter over leg 1 or leg 2 of the electrical wires. When the pump turns on, you will get an amperage reading. If the amps are right at FLA, you have a hole in the drop pipe. If the amps are well below FLA, you have a different problem.

 

[pmfleisch]

After watching a couple youtubes on pump replacement, I called in the pro. As several of you thought, he said it looks like it's the pump. I think he's going to replace that first and then we will see if there is also a leak in the drop pipe.

I think the pump's life was shortened from when the last pressure tank had a broken bladder and it was cycling on an off.

I'll post again when it's all done to let you know how it wraps up.

Thanks again to those that responded. I learned a lot about what's happening behind the scenes when I turn on the faucet. Your average joe really appreciates it!

 

[MI Well Drilling]

Red jacket pumps are famous for stripped shafts. You may be money ahead getting rid of that tank even though it's not very old. Pentair tanks are as famous as red jacket for being junk.

 

[Craigpump]

Red jacket pumps are famous for stripped shafts. You may be money ahead getting rid of that tank even though it's not very old. Pentair tanks are as famous as red jacket for being junk.

I won't install any Pentair pump after the aluminum winding fiasco. As for their tanks, the best that can said is that they make good trash containers for the shop.

 

[pmfleisch]

So here's the latest update - the culprit wasn't the pump - there was a bad galvanized coupling one section above the pump - so water was just pumping back into the hole. Great news - right? Replaced the coupling and I was hoping we were done.

Well as a part of the service, the guys also found that the lateral sleeve (my words for the 4" pipe that surrounds the galvanized water supply from the well to the house) is corroded and likely leaking groundwater into the well. The plan is to run a PVC pipe through the old 4" pipe and seal it off at the well. They would put in a pitless adapter and redo some grading around the well seal which is currently at grade in my driveway.

My wife is beyond worried about surface water contamination. They did take a well sample to test.

The job is stretching my checkbook in ways it doesn't want to be stretched. I really do like and trust the well guy. Any thoughts on this wrinkle?



(And yes - Reach4 - it's an air over water tank. I guess we have stinky water where I live and this is supposed to minimize it.)

 

[Reach4]

I suggest it would be better if they ran good poly pipe through the sleeve rather than PVC.

If the pipe was PVC, they should have used stainless steel couplers -- not galvanized. PVC couplers can be good if they are schedule 120 or 180 and they do not overtighten. If your downpipe is galvanized, I would have them replace that.

Your wife is right to worry, but only to the point of drinking bottled water until after getting your casing extended, pitless installed, and sanitizing your well and plumbing. You could do a quick sanitizing before the work if it will be done in the next several weeks.

After the new well work, I would do a good sanitizing. Start gathering the stuff. Is your casing 5 inch ID steel, or what? The first line of https://terrylove.com/forums/index....izing-extra-attention-to-4-inch-casing.65845/ has a link to a nice sanitizing article, but then I go into my possibly-overkill extension. If you have a 5 inch casing, you can drop chlorine pellets to the bottom. In that case I would still use a flooding volume, but if you use liquid bleach, I would use a lot more flooding volume.