Water Hammer When Pump Stops

[macster2075]

Hello,
I am in Florida on well water. The well head is about 80 feet from the house. The water tank and pressure switch are inside the car garage.
This house is from 1998, so I'm assuming the well is too. Ever since I bought this house, I notice every time the pump stops, it makes a loud noise and sounds like the pipes rattle in the walls.

I have been doing a lot of research, but based on what I've read so far, I am confused as to how to fix this.
Some say the check valve needs to be replace (which is located at the well head). I also read I may just need a water arrester installed after the water tank and before the sediment filter.

The last hurricane that past through here destroyed my well head (well, the PCV pipe that was connected to it). So, I had to redo the connection again.

I was actually going to replace the check valve, but I could not take that thing off at all. I put a lot of force to that thing and it didn't move! So, I left it alone and just redo the PVC connection that goes to the house. I have no idea on the condition of the check valve, I was just going to replace it since I was redoing the pipe connection.

I keep reading about CSV..but a lot say this is nonsense, others swear by it. It's very confusing. How can this CSV device be so controversial?
Anyway, any idea on how I can remove the check valve at the well head? It's really stuck on there and I don't wanna break anything.

Thanks so much.

 

[Reach4]

Where is the pump? Down the well, atop the well, in the garage, what?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Valveman]

Water hammer will always be there when the pump is filling the tank at max pump flow of 10-20 GPM. At 10-20 GPM the check valve is wide open when the pump shuts off. The spring in a spring loaded, poppet style check valve is supposed to pull the check valve closed when the pump stops, before the water reverses direction and slams the check valve closed. But that all happens so fast the water still reverses, slams the check valve shut, causing the water hammer.

Adding a Cycle Stop Valve will still allow your pump to produce 10-20 GPM when needed. The Cycle Stop Valve will just top off the tank at a flow rate of 1 GPM instead of 10-20 GPM. When the pump is shut off while only pumping 1 GPM, the check valve is only open as much as the thickness of a piece of paper. From the barely open position, the check valve does not cause water hammer when the pump shuts off.

You can use the CSV with any size tank, but the 5 gallon size shown in the picture is really all that is needed. But if you have a 50 gallon size tank that holds 15 gallons of water, the CSV should be set at 55 PSI to work with a 40/60 switch. In this way the tank is filled quickly to 55 PSI, and the CSV fills the last 3 gallons in the tank at 1 GPM rate, making it take only 3 minutes to fill such a large tank after all the faucets are closed.

 

[Valveman]

I keep reading about CSV..but a lot say this is nonsense, others swear by it. It's very confusing. How can this CSV device be so controversial?

Check the sources. There is only one crazy guy on the Internet who has made 13 click bait videos and is making money every time someone clicks on those completely inaccurate videos. He knows that are not even close to being the truth, but he doesn't care because he makes money for every click. Here are a couple of the latest comments on his page.

@johnpower8356​

2 months ago
You're out of your mind. These things are great. It does everything they say it does.

@dumore1​

2 weeks ago
Barfing ignorance at 50% tilt. Perpetual motion is the only way to get to 100%, Does he have a perpetual motion video? <barf> if he does

Cycle Stop Valves are controversial because they are a disruptive product. When something as simple as a CSV can make pumps last many times longer than normal and work with a pressure tank many times smaller than normal, many people think it is Snake Oil. But again, check the source. Negative comments only come from someone like the crazy video guy in the Philippines who has never seen a CSV and has no clue how it works. Anyone who has actually seen a CSV work knows they do exactly as advertised and make pumps last much longer than normal like anyone of our thousands of 5 star reviews seen here. https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/reviews

 

[Bannerman]

any idea on how I can remove the check valve at the well head?

Photo?

 

[macster2075]

Where is the pump? Down the well, atop the well, in the garage, what?

The pump is down the well, not sure how deep. The 50 gal tank is inside the garage. I keep pressure at 35-55 and the tank at 33 psi.
There is only one check valve that I am aware of and it's right at the head of the well as show in the picture.

I tried to remove that, but it's extremely stuck on there and was not able to undo it. That was before re-pipping it after the hurricane. Before I try a CSV, I want to replace this valve as that is the original since at least 1998 to see if maybe a new one would help with the water hammer.

I know I will have to cut the pvc in order to remove the check valve. Any tips on how to remove it?
Also, which type of check valve is the best for this?

Thank you.

 

[Reach4]

There should be a check valve in the pump and/or at the pump.

If that check valve at the pump works, you should be able to maintain water to the top of the tee in your picture if you remove the plug. If that does not hold water, your above-ground check valve may have been needed as a work-around.

You have a union to the left of the above-ground check valve, so that could be part of what you would need. I am not feeling confident that the piping to the right has enough flex to let you unscrew the check valve. If it did without much force, then you could potentially gut the check valve by removing its poppet.

Otherwise, the quick effective easy way is to cut the pipe with a saw. Make what you need, and glue a coupling onto a new piece of PVC.

Confirm there is not an additional check valve at the pressure tank. You were just working on that, so it seems unlikely. Still, you could give it a quick look if there were any doubt.

 

[macster2075]

Right.. I know I will have to cut the pipe. As I said on my previous post, I tried removing the check valve prior to installing the new pipe, but I was not able to move that thing at all.

Any tips on the best way to remove it?
Also, what kind of check valve is the best for this?

 

[macster2075]

Something like this,

 

[Valveman]

That check valve is most of the problem. It should be removed. Removing it will make the one in the well work better. But if after removing the check valve the pressure decreases when no water is being used, the check valve on the pump has failed or there is a hole in the drop pipe. Usually the extra check valve causes water hammer on pump start instead of pump stop? But it causes problems either way. Check valves above ground are even illegal in many states, at least the ones with decent engineers.

With two pipe wrenches, one on top of the other, you should be able to unscrew the union half. With the union taken apart, you can use the pipe wrenches in the same way to unscrew the check valve from the PVC adapter. Then, instead of replacing the check valve that is a good place to install a CSV1A Cycle Stop Valve. The CSV will solve the water hammer problem, deliver strong constant pressure to the house, and make the pump system last longer. Again, look at a few hundred reviews from people who had the same problem.

Reviews – Cycle Stop Valves, Inc

cyclestopvalves.com

 

[macster2075]

Boy you sure promote the CSV eh? haha... but I get it. I will try the replacing the check valve and see how it goes before maybe trying out a CSV.

 

[Bannerman]

I will try the replacing the check valve and see how it goes

You're missing the point. That check valve should not be there so, no need to replace it.

The only check valve that should be in the system, is the one located within the submersible pump. If an aditional check valve is desired for redundancy, then one maybe added directly to the pump's outlet connection.

 

[macster2075]

You're missing the point. That check valve should not be there so, no need to replace it.

The only check valve that should be in the system, is the one located within the submersible pump. If an aditional check valve is desired for redundancy, then one maybe added directly to the pump's outlet connection.

So are you saying the folks that installed that check valve there at the well head were not supposed to do that?

 

[Bannerman]

are you saying the folks that installed that check valve there at the well head were not supposed to do that?

Correct.

Not only can multiple check valves result in water hammer issues, multiple check valves can cause other issues including preventing those installed upstream, from closing fully.

As Valveman stated in post #10 above: "Check valves above ground are even illegal in many states, at least the ones with decent engineers."

This is because a vacuum condition can occur when the preceeding check valve doesn't close fully, thereby permitting water to drain back into the well when there is any air leakage before the upper check valve. Depending on the location of the air leak, contaminants may be drawn into the pipe, thereby contaminating the water supply when the pump becomes next activated.

 

[macster2075]

The good thing is that all the years we've been here, the water has never had issues with bacteria on all the tests I've had done. Also, there seems to be no leak as there is no pressure loss at all. The only thing I've noticed throughout the years is that hammer every time the pump stops.

 

[Bannerman]

the water has never had issues with bacteria on all the tests I've had done.

Too many installers, often place an additional check valve directly before the pressure tank. With 80' of horizontal distance to the well head, a small leak anywhere in the buried pipe before a tank located check valve, could result in contaminanted water being drawn in from the soil. This is the main reason for many states outlawing above ground check valves.

The location of your additional check valve shown elevated in the air above the well head, will be less likely to draw in contaminants even if there is air leakage around the union fitting, or around the plug ontop of the wellhead Tee.

In your situation, there is less of a safety concern, so the recommendation to remove the CV is mainly due to a practical perspective. ie: to resolve a water hammer issue caused by the use of multiple CVs.

With only 1 check valve, located directly at/within the submersible pump, the pressure tank will supply pressure to keep the drop pipe and buried supply pipe filled and under positive pressure, even while the pump is not operating.

If you find the pump begins to short cycle when there has been no water use, that will usually indicate as Valveman mentioned above, either the pump's check valve is not fully closing, or there is a hole/leak in the piping before the pressure tank/P switch. An above ground CV will often be installed, to mask a problem. While installation of an additional CV may seem to resolve a short cycling problem, it is not fixing the actual problem and so should be done as a temporary solution until the actual issue is dealt with correctly.

Even if the above ground CV is currently preventing the pump's CV from closing fully, the pump's CV will usually begin to fully close once the additional CV is removed, because the pressure now being supplied from the pressure tank, will assist it to close tightly.

 

[macster2075]

This is so confusing. So many peeps have different takes depending on who you ask. This is why I decided to check a few places to see if there is some consensus, but I see there isn't lol.

Some say It's a common misconception that you should only have one check valve in a well system. In reality, for most submersible pump systems, having multiple check valves is often recommended and can be beneficial.

Other's say only one check valve should be installed!

Then I also got this answer....
"The advice you're getting telling you you should remove that check valve from there because the system is not supposed to have 2 of them" is generally incorrect for a submersible well pump system. In most cases, having a check valve at the well head in addition to one down the well (either built into the pump or installed close to it) is a recommended practice for optimal system performance and longevity."

Frustrating say the least!

 

[Reach4]

We say you should not want that topside check valve.

You have a topside check valve. It will be less work for you to listen to the other source.

 

[macster2075]

You know what? I was wrong all this time. I thought the noise I was hearing was when the pump stops, but it's actually when it starts. Sorry for the confusion. I paid close attention this time and stayed there until the pump cycled.. no issue when it stops.. the switch makes this thump when the pump starts... and because the tank and switch are close the wall in my room, I can hear or feel it, so maybe that's why I thought it was water hammer? sometimes the thump is very abrupt and stronger than others.

Any ideas on what could be? At least I know the check valve is fine haha...or is it?

 

[Bannerman]

Usually the extra check valve causes water hammer on pump start instead of pump stop? But it causes problems either way.