Water distribution re-plumb

Users who are viewing this thread

MrStop

Member
Messages
86
Reaction score
1
Points
8
Location
Cincinnati, OH
I will be upgrading my plumbing to install a new water heater, softener, and water distribution manifolds. Piping will be rerun to improve water flow and reduce the pressure drop. I’m on city water. Water enters the home with a 3/4-inch pipe and then reduces down to a 1/2-inch pipe. Water pressure is about 85 psi and flows a little over 13 gpm measured at the nearest outdoor faucet about 10 feet away from the meter. My layout will be something like follows:

mrstop-01.jpg


Questions:
1. Do I gain anything by upgrading my main line to 1-inch instead of 3/4-inch (after the meter)? Or does it not do anything as the supply is already constricted? The supply coming into the house is 3/4-inch with a 5/8-inch meter. It runs approximately 35-feet to the utility room to the softener, water heater and distribution manifold.

2. Is the expansion tank in the picture below too close to the water heater? If so, how far away should I be?

mrstop-02.jpg


3. Is a “heat riser” before the expansion tank helpful? I have seen some installation drawings with a “heat riser” (a 6” minimum pipe rise) between the expansion tank and water heater.

4. Should I install a check valve before the expansion tank? The installation instructions show one. Is this just for when I have hot water recirculation? Where should it be located in the system? What check valve is recommended?

5. Can I, or should I bypass the tempering valve to supply the dishwasher and clothes washer with a higher water temp?

6. Can I combine drains for the water heater condensate, T&P valve and drip pan into a single drain line? Can I add the water softener drain into that also? What is the best way to terminate into a floor drain?

7. Is a sediment filter helpful on a city water system, or am I just introducing a pressure drop for no reason?

8. What type of wall surface (e.g. plywood, osb) should I have in my utility room for mounting the distribution system? My utility room is in the basement with concrete walls. I will be building a 2x4 behind for insulation, etc. and I’m wondering what is best for mounting.

9. Any other suggestions / concerns with my layout?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

MrStop

Member
Messages
86
Reaction score
1
Points
8
Location
Cincinnati, OH
In regards to question 6, is this the best system to terminate the condensate, T&P and softener drains? Are there alternatives?

Tru-Gap air gap fixture:

example_2_original.jpg


Here's the HVAC installer's solution in my house (water is coming from leaky WH). Is the exhaust condensate line considered correct as it enters an open pipe 6"above the drain?

mrstop-03.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:

hj

Master Plumber
Messages
33,600
Reaction score
1,037
Points
113
Location
Cave Creek, Arizona
Website
www.terrylove.com
I do not know what happened to questions #1 and 2.
3. Usually not with a modern heater since it probably already has heat traps to accomplish the same thing.
4. I cannot imagine any benefit for a check valve on the incoming line, but the recirculation line does need one.
5. What are the normal and reduced temperatures. Few people use hot water for washing these days and you may not need the "hot" temperature for the dishwasher
6.NO! You cannot join gravity and pressure discharges into the same pipe.
7. You are introducing the restriction, but whether you need it or not depends on the quality of the water you get.
8. Whatever you want or have around the house.
9. 9. If you have a tempering valve AND a recirculation system it WILL screw up your temperatures unless it engineered properly.
 

MrStop

Member
Messages
86
Reaction score
1
Points
8
Location
Cincinnati, OH
Thanks.

For 4 & 9, the recirc is potentially a future option as I remodel my home. I'll hold on that for now to reduce complexity.

5. Sounds like a separate untempered hot water line is unnecessary. I'll set my water heater to ~140*+ and then drop to ~120* at the tempering valve. And yes, most of our clothes are done on a cold wash. I checked my dishwasher specs and max input temperature is 120*.

6. What's the best way to terminate the condensate & pressure drains into my floor drain? I need to handle 6 lines (2-condensate lines (W/H & HVAC), 1-T&P discharge, 1-softener discharge, 1-W/H drain pan & 1-dehumidifier discharge).

7. It sounds like the filter is unnecessary. I have a newer water main on my street and we get really good quality. Also, I have never noticed any sediment except when they do their annual hydrant flush.


Question's 1 & 2 are between the two large pictures. For reference:

1. Do I gain anything by upgrading my main line to 1-inch instead of 3/4-inch (after the meter)? Or does it not do anything as the supply is already constricted? The supply coming into the house is 3/4-inch with a 5/8-inch meter. It runs approximately 35-feet to the utility room to the softener, water heater and distribution manifold.

2. Is the expansion tank in the picture below too close to the water heater? If so, how far away should I be?
 
Last edited:

SHR

Member
Messages
140
Reaction score
4
Points
18
Location
Minnesota
6. What's the best way to terminate the condensate & pressure drains into my floor drain? I need to handle 6 lines (2-condensate lines (W/H & HVAC), 1-T&P discharge, 1-softener discharge, 1-W/H drain pan & 1-dehumidifier discharge).

"Mr Stop" posted the answer already at #2. The Tru-Gap is the only way I will ever terminate lines to a floor drain. It is a great product invented and made be a plumber. If you can not find locally, google it, it is available on-line.
 

MrStop

Member
Messages
86
Reaction score
1
Points
8
Location
Cincinnati, OH
"Mr Stop" posted the answer already at #2. The Tru-Gap is the only way I will ever terminate lines to a floor drain. It is a great product invented and made be a plumber. If you can not find locally, google it, it is available on-line.

Thanks for confirming, it looked to be the best and most elegant solution I could find. That was me, the OP, BTW. :cool:

It looks like it has room for three inputs. I guess I can combine all of my condensate lines into a single pipe, have one pipe for the T&P, and another for the softener. The water heater drip pan would just have to run along the floor and into the drain, correct?
 

SHR

Member
Messages
140
Reaction score
4
Points
18
Location
Minnesota
That was me, the OP, BTW. :cool:

Oops, guess I should have paid more attention.

The Tru-Gap comes with the bracket for 3 inputs but you can add an additional bracket for a total of 6 inputs. The extra brackets are available separately as accessories.
 

MrStop

Member
Messages
86
Reaction score
1
Points
8
Location
Cincinnati, OH
Regarding my question #1 regarding up-sizing a water larger than the input pipe (e.g. installing a 1" pipe after the 3/4" meter & street service into the house). It does look like there is a benefit based on the chart below (source:engineeringtoolbox.com) in having a building supply line larger than the street service. So with a total of 39 WFSU and a length under 40 feet, I should upgrade to a 1" building supply line, despite the 3/4" street supply correct?

upload_2014-11-25_22-46-35.png
 

MrStop

Member
Messages
86
Reaction score
1
Points
8
Location
Cincinnati, OH
I have started reading up on sizing a water distribution system. I redid my water estimates based on my local plumbing code (IPC 2012). The numbers are slightly different but I get similar results. My total WSFU is ~33 which still gives me a 1" distribution pipe, even on a 3/4" service line (@ over 60psi). I'm surprised upsizing the service pipe and meter doesn't help much. What's more amazing is that my current distribution pipe is 1/2" through the whole house.

From IPC
TABLE AP201.1 MINIMUM SIZE OF WATER METERS, MAINS AND DISTRIBUTION PIPING BASED ON WATER SUPPLY FIXTURE UNIT VALUES (w.s.f.u.)

upload_2014-11-26_16-1-22.png


I also calculated the expected water demand flow using a formula from engineering tool box. It states that the expected demand in a water supply system can be estimated as follows:

qet = qnl + 0.015 ( Σqn - qnl ) + 0.17 ( Σqn - qnl )1/2 (1)

where
qet = expected total water flow (l/s)
qnl = demand of largest consumer (l/s)
Σqn = total theoretical water flow - all fixtures summarized (l/s)

Using the codes minimum design flow rates, my total theoretical flow is 3.7 l/s (57.9 GPM) with the largest demand being 0.3 l/s (5.0 GPM). Inputing these numbers into the formula I get an expected water flow of 0.68 l/s or 10.7 GPM. I still think I arrive at the same answer of around a 1" distribution pipe based on the flow. I still need to run calculations for each section of pipe factoring in distance, rise, fittings etc.

Here's spreadsheet I put together of my planned setup:

upload_2014-11-26_16-16-3.png


upload_2014-11-26_16-1-22.png

upload_2014-11-26_16-16-3.png
 

MrStop

Member
Messages
86
Reaction score
1
Points
8
Location
Cincinnati, OH
2. Any concerns on how the expansion tank is mounted on the unit above? I like how it reduces the "footprint" of the plumbing system. However, I have read some comments about having an expansion tank too close to the water heater could reduce life of the tank due to hotter water entering. I'm wondering if this is really a concern given that
a modern heater ..probably...has heat traps
. In feeling the cold water pipe on my existing water heater, I don't feel any warmth at all.
 
Last edited:

MrStop

Member
Messages
86
Reaction score
1
Points
8
Location
Cincinnati, OH
Should I plumb with a home run manifold or remote submanfolds with hot recirculation? I will be running 1" copper to the main manifold, and then I will split off into PEX. I'm getting nearly instant hot water in my current home config (<25 runs through 1/2" pipe). However, I will be nearly doubling the length of my longest runs. Based on the lengths of my runs below, will a home run cause a substantial increase in hot water wait time/waste over a recirculation system?
  • The longest run will be ~50' to the kitchen sink/dishwasher from the water heater
  • Master bath will be about ~20' from the water heater
  • Kids/guest Bathroom will be about 40' from the water heater
 

MrStop

Member
Messages
86
Reaction score
1
Points
8
Location
Cincinnati, OH
I thought I would post a little update. I finally finished my big little plumbing upgrade project. It involved moving and installing a new water heater, installing a water softener, and upgrading the supply line.

It took a couple of months as I had to complete it as I had time, and in a way that I minimized water disruption. It also would have been a lot easier if I was a pro with a fully stocked truck of parts to save me countless trips to the store for odds & ends. Anyway I think I exercised just about every home improvement skill to complete this job including carpentry, electrical, gas and plumbing.

After 132 soldered connections, here's the end result. Let me know if you see any issues with my install that need corrected.

Previously, water exited the meter with a 1/2" pipe at approximately 85 PSI. There was no regulator and a barely operable 50 year old globe valve. The main line is now 1" copper. It splits off before the Honeywell regulator to go to the outdoor faucets which are connected with 3/4" Uponor PEX. I still need to upgrade the valve on the city side of the meter.

mrstop-04.jpg

After the regulator, the 1" line travels approximately 35' to the "mechanical area". I built a new wall to hold the new water distribution manifold system and electrical. A new dedicated electrical line was run to power the water heater via a GFCI outlet. I also built a small platform for the water heater to sit on in order to raise the water pan drain to allow it to properly drain to the air gap. As the water heater was move to the other side of the furnace, I extended the gas line to the new location. Intake and exhaust vents were also added.

mrstop-05.jpg


I built a new water distribution system. Water goes through a bypass and into the Fleck 5600SXT water softener. Custom cold/hot supply manifolds were built to divide up the house into 3 zones. 3/4" PEX caries the water to the existing 1/2" copper. Other upgrades included an expansion tank and Honeywell tempering valve. A gauge was added to monitor water temperature and pressure coming out of the water heater.

mrstop-06.jpg

A TruGap drain air gap was added to take care of W/H and HVAC condensate, W/H pan overflow, as well as discharge for the water softener and T&P valve. After 6 years in the house, this is the first time the floor drain has been dry.

mrstop-07.jpg

The end result is great. I now have quiet plumbing due to the larger pipe and reduced pressure. If someone flushes a toilet, does laundry or dishes while you take a shower, it is no longer a tragic event. To top it off, the water heater is providing nearly endless hot water.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Handy1

New Member
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Seattle, WA
Any issues with my install that I should address/correct?
HI...no issues with your install. It's one of the best Ive seen. I see you had to trim the drain pan to fit the unit into it. How did you lift it into the pan without destroying the pan?
I am thinking about purchasing a HTP phoenix light duty 50 gallon unit for my home and I wanted to check in with you to see how your unit was doing. You had a comment about some fan noise. How loud is it now with the cover on? All gas condensing or direct vent water heaters have blowers/motors to move the intake and exhaust air so comparing it to other units.... would you say it's louder or equal to?

Any other problems, thoughts or comments?
Many thx
 

MrStop

Member
Messages
86
Reaction score
1
Points
8
Location
Cincinnati, OH
HI...no issues with your install. It's one of the best Ive seen. I see you had to trim the drain pan to fit the unit into it. How did you lift it into the pan without destroying the pan?
I am thinking about purchasing a HTP phoenix light duty 50 gallon unit for my home and I wanted to check in with you to see how your unit was doing. You had a comment about some fan noise. How loud is it now with the cover on? All gas condensing or direct vent water heaters have blowers/motors to move the intake and exhaust air so comparing it to other units.... would you say it's louder or equal to?

Any other problems, thoughts or comments?
Many thx

Thank you, I took my time and since the labor was on my dime I went a little overboard ;). You are very observant as yes, I had to trim the drain pan to clear the bottom of the front panel. If I recall correctly, I had it resting on some wood blocks on the platform. I got the unit up there through a series of "tilts." I then tilted it into the pan, and moved it into final position with help from my wife. I saw someone else use a pan for a clothes washer instead for water heaters. If I had to do it again, I would probably go that route for durability and because it may have a shorter lip.

The fan noise isn't too much of an an issue. The vent fan is actually silent. The noise is from a cooling fan for the electrical board (think computer fan) that makes the noise. To your point it is quieter than the other mechanical equipment located right next to it.

The unit is performing great. I will say the unit did manage to slow it's output of hot water during the winter months as water temperature coming in dropped likely into the low 40's. I did have one issue with a leak behind the condensation drain. I attempted to contact HTP via email a couple of times, however they failed to respond (not to pleased about that). I could have called and pushed the issue but I found a solution online that mentioned to put a washer from a garden hose on the drain (see here for problem & solution: http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/149901/htp-phoenix-ld-condensate-neutralizer-leak). It hasn't leaked since.

I think this unit is a great option for someone looking for the efficiency (recovery and energy) close to a tankless water heater without the install complexity to deal with the short-comings of a tankless unit. Also, it got the combustion air out of the home for, in theory, healthier air. At the same time it eliminated a flue stack that was in the way of my home remodel. I have no idea how long I'll be in my home, but even if I stay here a long time (knock on wood), I should never have to replace my water heater again.

All-in-all, no regrets and I would probably make the same decision at this point.
 

Arghh

New Member
Messages
1
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Nice install. Much nicer than mine. I installed a PH76-50 to replace a leaking, well-past-its-prime AOSmith Direct Vent. Not quite two years ago. Very happy with the unit.

Comments:

1. Plumber told me not to use a wooden platform, so I tracked down a leftover piece of 24" diameter Sonotube from a construction supply company and poured a concrete base. My basement floor is way off level where the heater is located. Probably the hardest part of my install was marking & cutting the Sonotube at an angle with a sawzall so it would produce a level base.
2. I found the unit pretty quiet with the cover on. It's in a basement utility area on an outside wall, so it has just a few feet of 2" exhaust and intake PVC. To me, it's only noticeable in the dining room above, so not a big deal. Far quieter than the bath fan and the furnace.
3. Recovery time is fantastic. My set point is 126F. The deadband is about 8F, so the burner turns on when the temp drops to 118F. After the unit was first turned up on a winter's morning (incoming water at about 38F), it shut off so soon I said "Uh-oh." But nothing was wrong. It does a great job of putting the BTUs into the water. It can handle an endless shower with 38F water supply. Filling a 50-gallon (nominal) jetted tub, the temp bottomed out at 87F, and recovery time was 5 minutes, 30 seconds at 38F supply temp.
4. I've got a gravity recirculation return line running into the bottom drain. I unscrewed the factory boiler drain and added a brass tee. Flawless operation.
5. I had routine leakage from the rock box right after turn-up, too. In fact, that's my post over on Heatinghelp. I'd totally forgotten it until I saw your note here. After I made that initial post, I had called them for tech support via phone and they answered my question promptly. As a manufacturer mostly dealing with distributors, I doubt they're geared toward end-user tech support.
6. I added tees in the combustion supply and exhaust pipes so I could clean and remove obstructions from the screens, since in the past I'd had chipmunks store seed in my furnace intake. So far, no repeats on that, and nothing on the screens when I inspected.
7. For the direct vent retrofit, I used a concentric pipe and custom-made trim plate and pipe collar from scrap sheet galvanized and a Fernco.
8. The next business day after I ordered the unit from a local retailer, the factory phoned me to let me know the shipping schedule. It got from them to my metro area (Milwaukee) about as fast as reasonable by truck, but then it sat in the local LTL terminal waiting a week to get on a lift truck to my driveway. Nonetheless, it was all within the time promised when I ordered, and the trucking company people in the local dispatch office as well as the driver could not have been more helpful. As in your photo, the unit was delivered to my door crated. I had no trouble uncrating it, taping it on a makeshift corrugated skid and slowly sliding it down to the basement.
9. Their video pointed out the ease with which the condensate drain could be moved from the right to the left side. Not possible using the fittings they supplied, since the distance between the neutralizer outlet and the trim ring is shorter on the left than on the right, and it is offset slightly. But, not a big deal to properly rig it using field-supplied parts.
10. For whatever reason they used a relatively light-gauge FIP-tapped copper pipe nipple to connect the boiler drain valve to the tank. Not anything like Schedule 40. The copper "bulges" a bit with the drain screwed in. Since it's copper I wasn't too concerned, but I wondered why they didn't just use stainless or brass.
11. The control panel cover has to be removed to wire the power supply. After piping the vents with Schedule 40 PVC on the left, it's difficult to get the screws started on the left side of the control panel because they are blocked by the vent piping.

I chose this tank style rather than tankless because recirc is a requirement for me. I looked at the Rheem, AOSmith and Polaris high-efficiency units rated around 100,000 BTU, while this one is 76,000 BTU. This cost more than the Rheem and AOSmith, less than the Polaris. Other factors in the choice:

i. It didn't require me to upsize the gas line.
ii. The stainless tank to me meant no more anode rods and no flaking metal clogging up the condensate drain or boiler drain.
iii. The shorter stature made it easy to fit within the vertical constraint of the old direct vent exit hole's distance from the floor, which would have been a tight fit for the Rheem or the AOSmith.

I flushed the unit after a year of operation and got only a small amount of sediment out of it. Far less than I ever got with the glass-lined tank.
 

MrStop

Member
Messages
86
Reaction score
1
Points
8
Location
Cincinnati, OH
Nice install. Much nicer than mine. I installed a PH76-50 to replace a leaking, well-past-its-prime AOSmith Direct Vent. Not quite two years ago. Very happy with the unit.

Thanks and glad to see its still running well. I have been very happy as well.

I chose this tank style rather than tankless because recirc is a requirement for me. I looked at the Rheem, AOSmith and Polaris high-efficiency units rated around 100,000 BTU, while this one is 76,000 BTU. This cost more than the Rheem and AOSmith, less than the Polaris. Other factors in the choice:

i. It didn't require me to upsize the gas line.
ii. The stainless tank to me meant no more anode rods and no flaking metal clogging up the condensate drain or boiler drain.
iii. The shorter stature made it easy to fit within the vertical constraint of the old direct vent exit hole's distance from the floor, which would have been a tight fit for the Rheem or the AOSmith.

I flushed the unit after a year of operation and got only a small amount of sediment out of it. Far less than I ever got with the glass-lined tank.

I had the same reasoning as to why I went with the HTP over the other options.

Comments:

1. Plumber told me not to use a wooden platform, so I tracked down a leftover piece of 24" diameter Sonotube from a construction supply company and poured a concrete base. My basement floor is way off level where the heater is located. Probably the hardest part of my install was marking & cutting the Sonotube at an angle with a sawzall so it would produce a level base.

Interesting on recommending not to use a wooden platform. I didn't find anything that would violate code. Also I rationalized its use as I'm sure there are installs over wood floors and on raised platforms in garages.

5. I had routine leakage from the rock box right after turn-up, too. In fact, that's my post over on Heatinghelp. I'd totally forgotten it until I saw your note here. After I made that initial post, I had called them for tech support via phone and they answered my question promptly. As a manufacturer mostly dealing with distributors, I doubt they're geared toward end-user tech support.

9. Their video pointed out the ease with which the condensate drain could be moved from the right to the left side. Not possible using the fittings they supplied, since the distance between the neutralizer outlet and the trim ring is shorter on the left than on the right, and it is offset slightly. But, not a big deal to properly rig it using field-supplied parts.

Small web world! Thanks for your tip on that. The fix is still working for me. The condensate drain was one of the more frustrating parts of the install. It certainly did not live up to the ease mentioned in video. It would have been a bit better if they made it more symmetrical for easy swapping. I ended up cutting down the hose barb a bit and then installed a new piece of vinyl tube. Unfortunately, there isn't much clearance so service is kind of a pain.
 

CDecker

New Member
Messages
1
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Buffalo, NY
Arghh and MrStop, thank you both for your feedback and extremely informative posts. I've also been looking at the HTP Phoenix Light Duty to replacing an aging Bosch Tankless Unit for my domestic, as well as provide a heat source for some new radiant (both in-slab and staple-up). I was originally looking at the Polaris units, but with no modulating burner and post after post of tank and ignitor problems, I kept searching and found the HTP Phoenix. As I'm sure you both experienced, there is not much feedback out there on these units quite yet, so I appreciate you taking the time to report your experiences. The light duty is appealing over the larger models, but I was a bit concerned the 76k BTU's might not be enough for both my heating load and domestic. After looking at my radiant loads, and reading your posts, I think it would keep up just fine. Great idea on using the drain port to return cooler water back to the tank as well! Have either of you ever had a situation where you've run out of hot water? Doesn't sound like it...

Thanks Again,
-Chris
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks