Valveman, only you can...HELP?

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog. Water is life.' started by nola000, Apr 25, 2013.

  1. nola000

    nola000 New Member

    Sep 25, 2009
    Southeast Louisiana
    Type of pump?
    Two wire (no control)____Y____
    Three wire (control box)___N___
    Wire Size____12_____ Wire Length____100____
    Jet Pump (above ground)____N_____
    One or two pipes down the well__1__

    Size of Pump?
    Motor Horsepower?_____1_____
    Pump Model #___4F19S10___________
    Date Pump Installed____not yet______

    Pumping from?
    Cistern tank_____N______
    Pond, lake, river____N____
    Water Well______Y______
    Depth of well_____300'_____
    Depth to water____16'_____
    Pump Setting_____80'_____
    Pipe Size____1.25"_____
    Drop Pipe Material

    Well Recovery Rate____18?___gpm
    Well Casing Diameter___4____”
    Rock Well_____N_____ Sand Well_____Y_____ Other______________
    Date Well Drilled_____March 2013_______

    Well Casing Material
    PVC____Y____ Steel____N_____ Other_________

    Pressure Tank?
    Bladder or diaphragm tank (one pipe to tank)_____N_____
    Size or model of tank______HP-26______
    Air charge in top of tank, with pump off and water drained______0______PSI
    (check with car tire gauge)
    Plain Hydro Pneumatic tank (two pipes to tank, one in and one out)____Y_____
    Size of tank_______120_________

    Pressure Switch Setting?
    On 30, off 50 ____N____
    On 40, off 60____MAYBE_____

    Pump Control Method?
    Cycle Stop Valve model #____CSV160_____
    Variable speed control #_____N_____
    Pump Start Relay (sprinkler timer, no tank)____N______
    Manually turned on and off_____N_______

    Pump Protection
    Cycle Sensor____N_____
    Low pressure cutoff switch (lever on side)_____N_____

    Filters or Softeners______N________
    Before or after pressure tank_______
    Type of filter___________________
    Bypass available________________

    Water Used For?
    House Use____Y___ Number of baths___2____ Number of People____4____
    High Flow Showers____2.5___gpm?
    Irrigation with timers____N____
    Irrigation with hoses____N____
    Heat Pump______gpm?

    Do you have, and know how to use
    an Ampmeter and Voltmeter________Y__________

    Describe Problem__________________________.....

    Hi. Looking for some input. Been reading a lot of similar threads but none that answered my questions. I think valveman could help me a lot if hes out there.
    I just bought some equipment today to hook up my newly dug well. All my equipment...

    Tank : Wellmate HP-26 - 120g, fiberglass, bladderless(air-over-water)
    Pump : F&W Commander "S" - 1HP, 19GPM
    Air Injection : Wellmate Micronizer
    Pressure Regulation : CSV160

    So the micronizer instructions say that the operating range for pressure is 10-60 PSI and the operating range for flow is 5-15GPM but dont I have to set my pressure switch cut-off to about 65PSI to get the CSV160 to operate properly, any problems with the micronizer being out of range at 65PSI? Will it damage the micronizer above 60 PSI or just not put water in? When the tank is drained down to say 45PSI and the pump kicks on will the micronizer put air in the water only until it reached 60PSI and is that enough air injection time for a 120G tank to prevent waterlogging?

    The only way I could see the micronizer working in this scenario is if, and Im no hydrodynamicist so please correct me, when while the pump is running and the demand in the house is greater than 5GPM which is the minimum flow rate for the micronizer to work, pressure is held at 60PSI by the CSV160 which is the maximum pressure that the micronizer works at and then the bubbles(air injection) somehow go into the tank and not down the supply line to the house. I dont think this will work because during this operation the air bypasses the tank and goes straight to the faucets in the house. Is this not right? Then when demand in the house stops the CSV160 regulates the flow to fill the tank to 1GPM which isnt enough flow for the micronizer. So in theory the micornizer never injects air into the tank with a CSV.

    If this is right then doesnt that leave no other scenario that allows a micronizer to work with a large capacity pump(>15GPM) and a CSV160? What equipment could I use that would allow me to utilize a CSV, a 19GPM pump and a micronizer? And yes, I read the section on CSV's website labeled "Micronizer and Standard Tank".
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2013
  2. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

    Mar 15, 2006
    Pump Controls Technician
    Lubbock, Texas
    The Micronizer needs to be installed after the CSV. Then the most pressure it will see is the 65 or so as you said, which I don’t think will hurt the Micronizer. You may need to shut the pump off at more like 63 PSI with that size tank. Basically you want to be running something small like the kitchen sink, get the pressure to steady out at 60 PSI, then shut off the kitchen sink. After the pump has been filling the tank for about one minute, that is the pressure where the pump needs to shut off, probably about 63 PSI.

    Now the pressure switch is set at about 43/63 with the CSV160. When you first turn on some water, the pressure will drop from 63 to 43 as the tank empties and the pump will start at 43 PSI. The CSV will have no effect until the pressure reaches 60 PSI. So the Micronizer is adding air to the full volume filling the tank. If you still have something small running like a 3 GPM shower, the CSV will start regulating the output of the pump to 3 GPM and maintain 60 PSI constant for as long as you are in the shower. This is too low a flow rate for the Micronizer to be injecting any air. But with an air over water style tank, the water should flow into the tank from one side and flow out the other side. This way, the water still passes through the tank, which is still about 2/3rds full of air. Even though the Micronizer is not injecting any air at the 3 GPM shower rate, the water is still passing through the tank, which does have air in it.

    If you ran nothing but a 3 GPM sprinkler in the yard for days at a time, the air in the tank will eventually mix with and go out with the water, and the tank would become waterlogged. But if you open up more than 5 GPM, the Micronizer adds air the whole time and the tank still gets its air charge as it should. When just using water in the house, the pump will cycle on and off enough to maintain the air charge that is needed.

    The air injector with the big tank will allow you to keep the air volume as needed. The CSV will still give you the constant 60 PSI for long term uses of water. The only drawback it that you still have to wait a few minutes for the 25 gallons in the tank to be used up as the pressure continually drops form 63 to 43, before the pump starts, the tank refills, then the CSV will maintain 60 PSI constant until you stop using water.
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  4. nola000

    nola000 New Member

    Sep 25, 2009
    Southeast Louisiana
    Got that.

    At full volume my pump is pushing 19GPM which is outside the range of the micronizer so if Im not using water in the house and the tank is refilling Im not so sure the micronizer will be injecting air in this situation that you describe above. I guess I really need to know what the pressure and flow ranges mean on the micronizer. There are 3 possibilities
    1. If it means that the life of the micronizer is shortened outside those ranges then Ill just replace the micronizer more often
    2. The best case, if it means the micronizer wont let more than 60PSI or 15GPM pass through it then no big deal my 19GPM pump just wont push more than 15GPM and maybe I'll get a CSV150 instead of the CSV160 to stay within the pressure range.
    3. The worst case, if it means that the micronizer wont inject air outside of those ranges then I cant use a micronizer and Ill have to go to the old system of air injection using a snifter valve and such. BOOO!

    In theory. So in practice does this mean that the air suspended in the well water is enough to keep my tank from getting water logged? You educated me on well tanks for sure. I was under the impression that well tanks operated in parallel rather than in series for lack of better terms. This means that water is forced to enter and exit the tank rather than just tee'd onto the tank allowing water to bypass it. Im still concerned that if this is the only way air is "injected" into the tank in this passive sort of way that it wont be enough air to prevent water logging over time, whats your experience?

    Ahhhh! So the only time my system would inject air is if...
    1. The pump is running.
    2. The CSV160 is holding pressure at or below 60PSI.
    3. The demand in the house exceeds 5GPM.
    Im not sure this happens often enough in my house. Should I make it a habit to run beaucoup fixtures in my house once in awhile to make sure the micronizer is working and if so how often should I do this? Or should I switch to higher flow faucets and such to increase demand beyond 5GPM when just one or two fixtures are running? The micronizer instructions say that the micronizer only injects air for 30-50% of the pump run time which further reduces air injection potential.
    Also, theres still the possible problem of running that CSV160 which is a 60 PSI holding valve which is right at the tippy top of the micronizers range and might not do the trick. Is there way to make the CSV160 hold a lower pressure like maybe 58PSI just to make sure the micronizer is within range?
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2013
  5. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

    Mar 15, 2006
    Pump Controls Technician
    Lubbock, Texas
    Take a look at a cut-a-way diagram of that tank. It may look like a regular tank tee that lets water bypass the tank, but it is not. There is a tube that forces the inlet water up higher in the tank, and the water comes out from the bottom of the tank.

    Suspended air goes out with the water, which is what causes a tank to get waterlogged. The air charge on top of the water is what keeps the tank from getting waterlogged. It would take several days of 3 GPM flow to lose the air charge in the tank. As long as the pump cycles on and off a few times, or you use more than 5 GPM, it should add enough air to keep the air charge as needed.

    I really think the Micronizer itself will cause enough restriction to reduce the pumps max flow rate to 15 GPM. But if it doesn’t, you can place a ball valve in front of the CSV and hold back enough to limit the max flow to 15 GPM. That pump can still produced 15 GPM against 95 PSI. With a static of 18’, you are only going to have about 10 PSI against the pump for lift from the well, so you might have to hold back about 85 PSI with the ball valve to limit the flow to 15 GPM.

    Again, I don’t think 63 or 65 PSI is going to hurt the Micronizer or keep it from injecting air. It is the flow rate that causes a pressure differential across the Micronizer and forces it to draw in air.
  6. nola000

    nola000 New Member

    Sep 25, 2009
    Southeast Louisiana
    Youre correct. I called Wellmate tech support about the micronizer and they said that the micronizer wont let my 19GPM pump push to full capacity. They said it would slow the pump down to 15GPM maximum which would allow the micronizer to inject air on pump startup before the CSV starts holding back the flow at 60PSI. So the micronizer will work whenever the tank is drained to 45PSI and pumps to 60PSI. Correct?

    Also, I read something on CSV website about adjusting the pressure switch on the tank to affect the holding pressure of the CSV1. Because I have so much drawdown to spare Id like to get my CSV160 to maybe hold at 65 or 70PSI instead of its designed 60PSI. I realize this also affects the time the micronizer would work because it would bump up the cut-in pressure but its something Id like to tweak on. Could you clarify this method?

    One more, off topic. I read on the CSV website that they suggest as few check valves as possible. Would I be ok with the only check valve in my system being the one built into the pump?
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2013
  7. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

    Mar 15, 2006
    Pump Controls Technician
    Lubbock, Texas

    You can’t adjust the pressure of that CSV. It is set at 60 PSI. Depending on the accuracy of your gauge, it may show to hold at about 62 or 63 PSI. Whatever pressure your gauge shows the CSV to be holding constant, while running something small like the faucet at the kitchen sink, is the pressure where it starts to only allow 1 GPM to pass through. We don’t want it to take more than about 2 minutes to finish filling the pressure tank to the shut off pressure. So after you close off the kitchen sink faucet, wait 2 minutes and look at the pressure gauge. That is the pressure where the pump needs to shut off. So just loosen the largest adjustment screw in the pressure switch until the pump shuts off after 2 minutes and at that particular pressure. I am guessing 45/65.

    The draw down is determined by the air charge in the tank. The Air Volume Control should maintain the correct air charge and the correct draw down.

    The only check valve you want is the one attached to the pump.
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