upstairs shower problem(s) molds & pan settling

[dankbubba]

We have an old home (28+ yrs old, but only 2 yrs ours) with an
upstairs shower with a history of problems.

Most recently, my fiberglass shower pan settled in one corner with a
nice cracking sound leaving a 1/4" to 1/2" crack below the tiles. The
downstairs bathroom ceiling shows nothing.

What broke? Somekind of concrete filler or other support under the pan?

In addition we think there have been more leaks in the tiles or at the
base in the past and we have black mold problems (humid Southern CA)
at various points that won't clean off completely even with bleach.
These mold areas seem to be cracks in the tiles and/or grout lines.

Also, the valves are probably due to replace (small leaks). So, that
is just about everything.

We expect to remodel the bathroom, but don't want to rush it before
we can afford to get what we want and do a complete job including
replacing the flooring, tiles, valves, shower pan, etc.

For now, should I pump some flexible caulking into the crack to keep
any further water out of the walls/floor or not use this shower until
I do a temporary repair? Or the full remodel?

thanks for all help/advice,
dan

 

[Geniescience]

Rebuild time

...Most recently, my fiberglass shower pan settled in one corner with a nice cracking sound leaving a 1/4" to 1/2" crack below the tiles. The downstairs bathroom ceiling shows nothing.

What broke? Somekind of concrete filler or other support under the pan? <....>

What a mess! Will be glad to help you figure out what to do, to get it right.

dankbubba, what does " leaving a 1/4" to 1/2" crack below the tiles" mean?? Do you have a view under the tiles? Maybe this will be important to clarify. Maybe not.

You do have problems. Moisture is under the tiles (it came through the grout) and this creates a lot of mold of which you only get to see a little bit.

Whatever broke, means there was not enough physical (mechanical) support under the pan. Nothing good about that, and nothing going to shore it back up right.

2nd Question: Does this mean that the floor is now no longer sloped in the right direction, to the drain, where the cracked piece dropped down a bit?

You have a few months to prepare at most. I wonder if the seal is broken and the ceiling will start showing soon. If not, you still have the mold farm problem.

David

 

[Sponsor]

 

[dankbubba]

This crack appeared just this morning during my shower.
I heard a crunching crack and my weight was on one foot and felt it give
under me.

The pan separated (dropped down away) from the tile walls in that one
corner leaving about 1/2" crack at the very corner.

I assume that it is not sloping correctly, but that is probably the least of
the problems.

We want to replace all of the shower and the vinyl flooring in the bathroom
anyway, but we don't want to do something hasty if it will last a bit
longer until after new years, if we don't step in that corner and pump
sealent in that crack.

I'm new to this forum and cannot do most of the work. Is there a good
source of reputable (honest, efficient) local people to handle this kind
of work from estimate to full remodel.

I am in Irvine, CA.

thanks again,
dan

 

[Geniescience]

rip it out

Is the shower floor still in one piece, sloping to the new crack?

Either way, don't use that shower, Dan.

The slope is now going the wrong way, either for a part of the floor or for half the floor. Water will get out and ruin the ceiling below. Also, the fact that the floor moved will put unnecessary mechanical pressure on the drain which is made of several pieces not designed to be mechanical support to a body.

david

 

[Jadnashua]

I think you should stop using the shower! I think that the crunch you heard was the rotten floor starting to give way. I think it was a result of leaks over the years, as evidenced by the mold (and unseen rot). You might want to tear the ceiling out below it and take a look.

I think a major bathroom rebuild is in your future along with some structural work, at least some new subflooring. You might want to check out www.johnbridge.com for help with building a new shower and tiling or some more opinions.

Let us know what you find.

 

[dankbubba]

I won't be tearing out my ceiling to look further.
Gonna have somebody come out to give me an estimate
and use the guest shower for the next ??? weeks.

Any help with finding a good contractor to do this job?
Or advice on what to ask about or any other issues?

We will be redoing most of that bathroom.
details:

upstairs
approx 6x5' total space w/ the shower less than 3' wide
w/ glass+aluminum sliding doors
3" tile upto 6' high on 3 sides
fiberglass looking pan
drain in the middle.

Toilet takes remaining width.

basic vinyl floor.

new stuff:
ceramic tile floor. Probably need to replace underneath plywood too.

?not sure if we should do tile floor in shower as well or go
with the fiberglass again.

Assuming we need to replace all of the shower tiles anyway,
we might prefer a solid surface, so the grout doesn't collect so
much dirt.

might as well replace valves etc. and fully check all the plumbing.

thanks again for any help,
dan

 

[Geniescience]

remove surface layer, for diagnosis to be accurate.

dan

Will be glad to refer people, soon.

Right now you must remove some material, so either you do it yourself, or you pay the first guy who comes over do that while you participate.
A dentist needs an open mouth before s/he can even start to see your teeth.
A doctor needs a body to touch and probe before s/he can even start to diagnose ...
A renovator needs to see what s/he will be working with before s/he can make any hypothesis about what the right thing to do is.

All advice is based on information known. What you find out when you look underneath, is the next step. All talk is idle until you know more.

David

p.s. It's fun and easy to "do it yourself" with a hired expert handyman doing the essential parts.

 

[dankbubba]

david:

Thank you for your patient help.

Remove what material for the easiest looksee?

I am not sure that further diagnosis is necessary. I can and do do
some handyman stuff around the house when my wife lets me, but
this promises to be very messy and I am working 60-70 hrs/wk
to afford the mortgage. I also am about 300 lbs and might cause
more damage in the process.

I have $3k saved up for a rainy/moldy day and we
were planning to remodel anyway.

Other stuff I forgot to mention:
there is a soft spot in the floor just outside of the shower aligned
with the side wall of the shower. This I stepped in and left a heel
mark a year ago. At the time I thought it was due to some termites
we were having treated.

prior to buying the home we had the seller replace broken tiles on
the same side wall (actually the wall farthest from the shower head)
of the shower as above.

Before the big crack I had noticed that that wall tiles had a separation
from the shower pan and I was going to put some chaulk in that.

On the other side wall (head side) we have some water damage evident
on the downstairs ceiling and we have had a recurring leak in the cold
valve that drips/streams out into the shower when we turn on the cold.

All in all this shower has had lots of little problems in the past and is
showing signs of poor repairs or poor construction that have been left
for a long time.

The symptoms all point to a bad shower base long neglected.
http://www.hgtv.com/hgtv/rm_resources_expert_advice/article/0,1797,HGTV_3782_2624037,00.html

I don't presume to know more than anybody and appreciate all advice,
but I really hesitate to try to rip up the shower pan myself and expose
us completely to the mold underneath while I wait for the contractor to
begin work. I also am afraid to make a mess of the ceiling downstairs for
not much knowledge gain and making further outlets for mold.

I'm willing to try something non-drastic myself if you insist, tho

thanks again,
dan

 

[Jadnashua]

I think you will find some major water damage when you tear things out. Note, your structure may not be sufficient to support tile, you need to evaluate that. The deflection can be calculated - you need to know how far apart the joists are, how thick they are, how deep they are, and how far they span (how far between supports UNDER the floor - it is not the size of the room that counts). You can get some expert help on tiling at www.johnbridge.com where they also have a calculator you can use to determine if your structure CAN be tiled successfully. If it says no, there are some structural engineers there that can help you figure out how to make it okay.

While you are doing some research, check out www.schluter.com and look at Kerdi. Also, check out www.wedicorp.com and look at Wedi Fundo. These are two tileable systems that make bulletproof showers (if you follow the instructions!). The use of an epoxy grout means no sealer required, and it doesn't support mold growth, either. If you want to eliminate caulk entirely in the shower, check out Dilex on the Schluter site.

 

[Geniescience]

that was succinct advice

Jim said it all.

You must begin "removal". Did you expect me to say this?

If the existing pan gets ruined in the process, that is not a big heartache. Be sure to get your significant other to see all the squishy gooey spongey material that is supposed to be hard and solid, so no-one criticizes you later for having thrown too much stuff out.

Don't plan to keep any of the mold. Take it out all at once. Did you expect me to say this?

David

 

[Jadnashua]

A mixture of bleach and water will kill the mold. If you build a proper shower and keep moisture out of those enclosed spaces, you should be okay.

 

[dankbubba]

Jim said it all.

You must begin "removal". Did you expect me to say this?

If the existing pan gets ruined in the process, that is not a big heartache. Be sure to get your significant other to see all the squishy gooey spongey material that is supposed to be hard and solid, so no-one criticizes you later for having thrown too much stuff out.

Don't plan to keep any of the mold. Take it out all at once. Did you expect me to say this?

David

Actually I didn't know what you might say
I was hoping that I would be best served by waiting for the pros to handle things.

Another concern I have with taking stuff out is that it might corrupt
the full archeological history of the problems when the pro comes out.

I do see that you want me to expose the problem for the pro to see when he comes out to give me an estimate. But, if we are correct the entire shower
pan and wall tile must be removed and the floor of the entire shower/toilet room must be replaced. Any old/leaking plumbing parts will be replaced and the ugly flooring and shower door etc. will be replaced as an upgrade.

I also assume that you think removing the mold would be beneficial to our health and speed the pros in their work, perhaps reducing the price. My work
is killing me at the moment and but I'll see what my time is like for next week.

If nobody can recommend a contractor in my central orange county CA area, I'll go with a new comp called D&S construction who is 2-3 years in the business and has a very good BBB rating. Sounded like an easy guy to deal with on the phone as well. The problem is that the price range he guestimated on the phone was $5000-7500 which makes my $3000 budget a bit small. Gotta do what we gotta do, tho.

thanks again,
dan

 

[Geniescience]

alternative 2 step process

yes, dan, you described it well. The whole process.

An alternative plan is this:: you hire a little team of manual people, and they put the bad stuff into extra-heavy garbage bags.

You might find an experienced renovator will rent you someone for this. If you plan for a one-day removal process, then you and they will both know what you are up against by the time you have finished. But, they may want to make a deal with you before doing a first day's work. And you may succumb to the talk.

There is nothing to gain and lots to lose if you make deals before seeing the problem. The renovator has all the experience, and you have done this kind of thing how many times in your life before? How far down you dig before you decide the "foundation" is good enough, this alone is a big question that determines price. No negotiating in advance is giong to work in your favor. Even the most honest renovator will pad and know how to keep padding when faced with more newly uncovered unknowns. Even converting to an hourly rate will not work in your favor, for the same basic reason.

david

p.s. it is true that the average homeowner wants to see how their problem developed, and this architectural history makes for good dreams and good story-telling. But, it is not necesssary information at all. Five or ten years from now you will wonder why you spent so much time dreaming about how it all happened and what could have been done better and so on. When you sleep you have just as much spare time for stray thoughts as when you're awake, that is what I mean when I say you'll be dreaming about it. I mean you'll spend time thinking about historical fact, irrelevant to the situation.

The future is now. Building something new and doing it right so it works. When faced with a blank slate, you build on it. When faced with a mess, you remove the mess and clean it up and turn it into a buildable base, and from there you build on it just the same as you would on a blank slate.

P.P.S.
Another MASSIVE advantage to opening up the problem is that you get to see and decide how much mold or rot to remove, without suffering the incredible business/commercial pressure of having hired a guy or a team that have to get in and out of your place and make it pay their bills. They won't want to wait while you do "just a little more". They won't want to spend an extra few hours replacing anything that looks rotten but is still workable. The attitude they have and must have to survive is "good enough, and it'll dry out, and no-one will smell any mold" This embeds mold inside your new floor.
-d

P.P.P.S.
The whole process is TWO contracts, the first one being to remove the bad and let things dry out a few days. The BIG advantage that a homeowner has whether a DIY or not, is that he/she can see and decide how much quality they want in the early stages. You will enjoy that advantage only if you stop hanging on to the bad materials, the rotten and the moldy. Nobody is going to congratulate you for holding onto crap longer than necessary. You also get business advantages too, so what could prevent you now from throwing away what needs to be thrown away? The fear of starting, and the fear of the unknown.

 

[dankbubba]

wow

wow.
I get your points, David.
gonna attach a picture or 2. Doesn't sound like it will change anything. I am surprised that there aren't gobs of mold in the crack. I see lots on the surface of the tile grout, but nothing where the pan was separating from the tiles. Go figure.

You can see how messy it is on the surface and some broken
tiles with cracks in the grout showing quite a bit of mold.

For all I know the walls/tiles are good.

Taking the pan out will require taking the shower door off. I think we
wanted a new one anyway, but this will be a big chore and that is
such a small room for me to move around in.

 

[Geniescience]

good pictures

Dan, these are great! They show us all just how much mold there is.

Is this after you tried to clean it as much as possible? It looks bad to me.

david

 

[dankbubba]

No real attempt to clean. It was (way) overdue for a cleaning when it
cracked. But, in the past the only thing that would remove the dark
"mold" in the caulk at the bottom of the tiles and in the grout
btwn was a clorox bleach pen I had for laundry. I don't want to make
things worse by cleaning it at this point. The surfaces of the pan and
tiles cleans up fairly well.

I chipped 2 tiles trying to get some off and don't feel like trying anymore
with out some better tools.

I walked in it a bit and it really seems solid still even tho it has
dropped down in that one corner. It doesn't bounce or flex any more
than it did before. Pounded on the walls and they seem solid.

 

[Geniescience]

tiles cost 20 cents each. Break them.

dan

I had a minor minor mold problem on the surface. Underneath was tons of mold, invisible. You may be in a worse situation. It sure looks like it on the surface.

Information: Your wall tiles are among the cheapest of the cheap, from what I see in the photos. To rebuild with the same quality tile will cost you less than a dollar a square foot, for tile. The other stuff will cost a lot more. (more about that, later).

So, I recommend you go ahead and chip or break apart some tiles while removing them. Be bold. I doubt that anyone will congratulate you for having recuperated a certain fraction of your wall tiles for possible re-use. It is highly likely that people will look at them and say "disgusting". I know that happened to me.

david

p.s. Also, it is impossible to re-use tiles. Physically impossible, unless you are comfortable with dangerous high powered tools that will grind off the cement that remains stuck to the backs in places. And, financially impossible, unless you have a new source of funds that will pay the hourly wage for someone willing to perform the same work that no experienced self-financing DIY is willing to do even tho he may have all the time in the world and all the desire to save money. No-one ever does it.

 

[dankbubba]

david:

I am not concerned with breaking tiles so much as making a big mess of the surface underneath and the tiles and then finding out that we could have left all that in place. All I had to work with was a screwdriver and a hammer and I had no idea how to dig in and begin removing tiles without damage to the board surface the tiles are on. I was thinking that they would be loose due to the water damage and the cracking, but they were very solid even where the grout was loose and falling out.

Assuming we are remodelling the tiles will be replaced anyway, but if we decide to fix the current problem(s) and live with the tile walls as is, then I will have made things worse.

Recommend me a tool that I can use to get the tiles off without destroying whatever integrity there is in the waterproofed surface behind and I'll whack off a few in the most obvious places to see what mold lies beneath. In fact,
if you could tell me what all kinds of tools I might need to clean out the old caulking and grout I could get all that at once from the hardware store.

BTW all of the dark stuff at the bottom of the tiles is where the caulking is.
If caulk wasn't smeared all over the place there, that would look that bad.

Currently, I think I'll have the pro come out and look at it for an estimate based on a remodel with new tile new pan new door and new flooring outside
replacing any rotted floor plywood etc. We won't have time to get this done before our trip for christmas and so I'll have to wait until Jan for the work to begin at this point. I guess we could start it and then finish in Jan, tho.

If the pro thinks we might be able to repair things cost effectively, then I'll go that route. But, it seems like we will be wasting our time/money not doing the full job all at once.

thanks,
dan

 

[Geniescience]

paint can opener

ok, to remove one tile only, to see what you can see from there... use a paint can opener since it is just slim enough to fit between two tiles, and just hooked enough to grab the back of a tile, and then carefully pull back, or lever back at first -- which will scratch the surface finish of the other tile unless you protect it. Your call as to how much force, etc. If a tile starts to move a bit, i would stop levering from there, slid it a half inch over and pull / lever again, so that the tile or piece of tile is likely to be a bigger peice than if all the force goes on one spot without "pre-loosening" the rest of the tile.

(Edit a day later Just put a big flat thingie across a couple tiles, and use it as a base to lever against, and the lever you find is anything at all, something big and strong like a crow bar or wrecking bar. No tile will resist that. The big flat thingie is to ensure that you are not pushing into the wall on a single tile with equal force the targeted tile is being pulled with. Hope this explanation works for you. FWIW, in 99.5% of cases the homeowner ultimately finds out that there was no point being concerned about the surface underneath. However, I do want to tell you to disregard your concern.

david

 

[dankbubba]

$$$ contract in hand

David:

I have a contract in hand by the constuction co. I had come do an estimate.
It is a one man outfit. He will do all the tile and flooring, but not the plumbing and he will have the existing (odd size) pan reglazed.

diagnoses:
He says that the pan just settled a bit and was never all the way set in.
The tiles at the bottom were cut to fit the raised corner of the pan.
He is convinced that there is not really too much mold or water damage behind the tiles or under the pan. There is some rot in the flooring outside the shower due to leaks around the door over the years. That will come out and be replaced as well as the entire shower tiles and backerboard.

$3500 for the labor only (with some mastic, sealer, backerboard, plywood thrown in). All materials to be supplied by us: 20 sq ft of floor tile, 80 sq ft of shower tile & grout. In addition we would have to pay for a plumber to rework our shower valve (~$700) and supply the hardware. We would have to pay the reglazer (~$200) to refurb our pan. Lastly, we would have to purchase a new shower door, probably custom sized !($700), either w/ installation or contractor would install.

All told we are upwards of $6500 for my pitiful small shower room, but we get the remodel and upgrade we wanted and fix the existing problems.

Yikes! but we were warned before hand.
dan