Uponor PEX issues - 5 leaks in 2 months. House built in 2015. Need advice.

[Reach4]

It could be they established the program before the new formula red and blue was available.

I wonder if the new stuff has the color all of the way thru, vs on the top portion on the problem pipe.

 

[JohnCT]

I no idea if blue or red is currently made or sold?

Uponor lists it on their website so I assume it's still being made.

Personally, I never used colored PEX because I always thought it looked amateurish (ironic since an amateur is what I am).

John

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Jeff H Young]

Uponor lists it on their website so I assume it's still being made.

Personally, I never used colored PEX because I always thought it looked amateurish (ironic since an amateur is what I am).

John

Agree on the look especially when its sloppily running all over hell , mixed feelings on the color coding Ive never piped house with pex and it definately would take a little getting used to running coils of sloppy pipe down joist bays etc a lot more moving the ladder around plus youve got 4 differant pipe that you are using rather than mostly just 2 (1/2 and 3/4 ) mostly it definately is Fast moving production!

 

[HighqualityPlumbing]

How widespread is the issue?
I have seen reports of failure mostly of installations between ca. 2012 and 2022, including reports of entire condo associations replacing failing Uponor PEX-A.
There are pictures of failures of straight sections of white pipe here and on Reddit; so the problem is not isolated to the red/blue coloring process.
It would appear that Uponor cheaped out trying to maximize their profits, and spent little to nothing on ongoing quality control, at least during those 10 years; or how else can it be that an entire color coating process that removes the oxidation stabilizers, goes unnoticed for such a long time. And then apparently there are at least two independent root causes, the color coating and at least one more that also affects clear/white pipe.
The Colorado class action resulted in a $18M settlement.
My understanding is that Uponor is not required and will not disclose statistics of failures, or which years or batches might be affected.
So we can only guess. If the average class action payout per homeowner in Colorado was $18k, then there were 1000 members of the class action in Colorado.
If only every other affected homeowner in Colorado joined the class action, and we multiply the nationwide problem by 50 for 50 states, then we can assume ca. 100,000 already failed installations nationwide that surfaced within ca. 10 years after installation.
It appears that recirculation lines but also regular hot water lines break first, which is expected. However most regular hot water lines will be safely within the temperature, pressure, and Chlorine/Chloramine concentation limits of ASTM F2023 with a 50 year target design life; in most cases actually significantly lower than the limits as most houses have a PRV and significantly lower water temperatures than the ASTM F2023 testing limits. (Chlorine/Chloramine concentration of city water is regulated for health reasons.) So we can safely assume that cold water line failures follow with a delay, as there already are reports of cold water line failures.
For simplicity, let's assume that if x installations leaked within the first 10 years, then x*5 will fail within the 50 years of expected life. (I installed PEX everywhere in my house including under slab etc.; I personally would have never installed PEX if I didn't expect at least 50 years of life. Copper pipes can fail at 25 years, but most properly installed copper seems to last at least 50-100 years.)

So as a very rough estimation, we might expect 100,000 * 5 = 500,000 Uponor Pex-A installations with material failures nationwide of installations from between 2012 and 2022.

Is my estimation correct? I don't know how many total Uponor PEX-A installations happened in that period; we can probably estimate based on Uponor market share and total U.S. new home construction and repiping projects. Can we perhaps assume that all or almost all Uponor pipe from that period will have a measurably reduced lifetime? The fact that many contractors installed many miles worth of pipe that didn't fail (yet) is not necessarily indicative; it would be expected that the failures (other than recirculation lines) occur mostly in the 10-50 years after installation, depending on temperature/pressure and Chlorine/Chloramine levels.
I also doubt that UV exposure at time of installation is a major contributing factor. I'm sure there are single instances of sloppy handling or construction delays; but in the bulk of installations the contractor would not leave the pipe sitting outside or exposed for more than the allowable 30 days, not to mention the coils are delivered in cardboard boxes that would protect them from sun.
When I installed my PEX in ca. 2016, Uponor was one of the most highly regarded manufacturers, and highly recommended by most reputable contractors as a premium material and coupling system. I'm trying to figure out my chances of having a pipe failure because I did the repipe as I was hoping to not open my walls and yard again in my lifetime; I also still have leftover Uponor pipe for future projects. My pipes are not failing yet, but there is significant yellowing and blotting, whereas some commenters here said they saw some white Uponor pipe that stayed bright white longer.

Based on the estimated nationwide and projected numbers, to me it would appear that this is not an isolated problem, but a total and large-scale disaster.
Hard to understand why regulators (I guess in this case the municipalities who are responsible for construction codes, inspections, and permissible materials) don't intervene and force them to disclose the affected years/batches and remedies they have done in their manufacturing process, for the protection of homeowners; or else threaten to shut this organization down i.e. pull their PEX from the plumbing codes.

 

[HighqualityPlumbing]

It looks like Uponor is owned by Georg Fischer AG, Switzerland: https://www.google.com/finance/quote/GF:SWX

 

[Taylorjm]

How widespread is the issue?
I have seen reports of failure mostly of installations between ca. 2012 and 2022, including reports of entire condo associations replacing failing Uponor PEX-A.
There are pictures of failures of straight sections of white pipe here and on Reddit; so the problem is not isolated to the red/blue coloring process.
It would appear that Uponor cheaped out trying to maximize their profits, and spent little to nothing on ongoing quality control, at least during those 10 years; or how else can it be that an entire color coating process that removes the oxidation stabilizers, goes unnoticed for such a long time. And then apparently there are at least two independent root causes, the color coating and at least one more that also affects clear/white pipe.
The Colorado class action resulted in a $18M settlement.
My understanding is that Uponor is not required and will not disclose statistics of failures, or which years or batches might be affected.
So we can only guess. If the average class action payout per homeowner in Colorado was $18k, then there were 1000 members of the class action in Colorado.

Shhhhhhh. Don't mention statistics like that. There is nothing to see here Uponor is wonderful. We love Uponor. Now have some more kool aid and let's pass a snake around the room.

 

[hshaw]

Thank you for sharing all this great information. I too have had leaks in my home. My home was built in 2015, and I purchased it in 2018. Since then, I have had 7 leaks (who knows if there were more before I purchased it). Not knowing anything about plumbing I initially thought they were one offs and never thought about defective materials. The builder said it was out of warranty and again not knowing anything I was not aware that plumbing warranties last longer than 3 years. On our 4th call to a plumber, we were told about the defective materials by the company we called out. We contacted Uponor and they did reimburse us for the 2 of the most recent leaks because we had the pipe. Since then, I have had another leak. The prior leaks when I was not aware of the defect issues, I had not saved the pipe. It is obvious it was the same issue, but they will not do anything in good faith.
I am wondering if there is anything such as a lemon law for this situation. It appears all the piping should be replaced, or it will just continue to fail, and we will continually be having leaks and repairing them and submitting claims.
Does anyone know of any current class action suits to look in to? I found one but it was closed already.
Every pipe that has been cut out has been red. Does this mean I am only having problems with hot water leaks? I also have problems with hot water coming out of different sides of the tap. Could it be related to this problem or something completely different.
Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Breplum]

Most all the Uponor bad pipe I know of is red on the hot side, with dedicated recirculating. When pressed, they have paid their own specialists (Repipe Specialists) to come an redo with their white pex. Once the first crew that came out did a poor job and the homeowner complained enough that the 'Beverly Hills/Palo Alto" expert, high end crew came and redid the house a second time.

 

[JohnCT]

Every pipe that has been cut out has been red. Does this mean I am only having problems with hot water leaks?

It means that *right now* you are having problems with the hot water side. Since heat is one of the factors that ages any pipe, it makes sense the hot water side would fail first. Since your house is only ten years old now and has experienced failures after only a few years since it was made, it would seem to follow that the cold water side will eventually fail, but there's no way of knowing.

I also have problems with hot water coming out of different sides of the tap. Could it be related to this problem or something completely different.
Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

It sounds like an issue with the hot water recirculation - assuming you have that, not the pipe itself. Improperly installed recirculation will make things worse for the pipe.

John

 

[Breplum]

The failures have nothing particularly to do with recirculation improprieties, but the breakdown of plastics and chemical link failures.
Of interest, the Repipe Specialists who redid (2x) a friends home recently installed a 2gpm flow control on the recirc return. This device is not anywhere called for but they must think it helps. It is a Caleffi 127359AF2G0. Used in this one case on Navien NPE A series.

 

[hshaw]

Thank you! You are really helpful.

I haven't even shared all the issues! In addition to the leaks and hot water switching sides, there is hot water in my toilet bowl in one of the bathrooms and sometimes comes out the spigot in the yard. This has not always been the case just a more recent development in the past 6 months. I imagine the hot water will age the pipes quicker from what you have all said.

Additionally, in the master shower either the water comes out scalding, cold or starts warm and quickly turns cold. You cannot regulate it at all, it seems to make up its own mind. This has been happening for quite a while.

I do not even know where to start with all these issues. Are the faulty Uponor pipes a completely separate issue, or can they somehow be related?

Could any of this have to do with having a tankless water heater?

 

[JohnCT]

Are the faulty Uponor pipes a completely separate issue, or can they somehow be related?

The leaky pipes by themselves wouldn't have any effect on your odd hot-cold water issues. But you used the term "scalding". If unmixed hot water got into the PEX pipes it would certainly prematurely age them. The max your water temperature that reaches your plumbing after the mixing valve should be is maybe 140F tops.

Could any of this have to do with having a tankless water heater?

Anywhere the hot and cold water are mixed could be a problem. I haven't seen it, but I've heard even a bad cartridge in a single lever fixture can cause cross contamination, or maybe a defective mixing valve?

John

 

[hshaw]

The leaky pipes by themselves wouldn't have any effect on your odd hot-cold water issues. But you used the term "scalding". If unmixed hot water got into the PEX pipes it would certainly prematurely age them. The max your water temperature that reaches your plumbing after the mixing valve should be is maybe 140F tops.



Anywhere the hot and cold water are mixed could be a problem. I haven't seen it, but I've heard even a bad cartridge in a single lever fixture can cause cross contamination, or maybe a defective mixing valve?

John

Thank you for your reply John

 

[kvguy81]

Hello, I am new to this forum. Another home owner in Atlanta area with red Uponor pipe leak. First leak about over a month ago on the ceiling of dining room. Got it fixed and still keeping the bad section of the pipe, still not patch the drywall. Just last weak I realized there has been a damp area outside of the home right behind where water heater and main water line are. I asked in my neighborhood's group chat and there was one that had that same exact problem. That owner gave me her plumber phone number and I called, he knew exactly what the problem is and tell me to file a claim with Uponor. At this point I am really stressful while reading all the comments here. Should I still have the plumber out, cut some drywall and try to find the leak first? This time the leak coming from underground. Not sure what to do now, I saw someone in the Marietta had the same problem, may I know the outcome from Uponor. Did they agree to pay to re-pipe. Thank you.

 

[Breplum]

Uponor claim is the way to go. They are to only simple way to get covered without stress. They will send crew to fix leaks and patch. I am often in touch with Uponor rep (yesterday actually) but they are telling customers to file direct claims with Uponor.

 

[JohnCT]

Hello, I am new to this forum. Another home owner in Atlanta area with red Uponor pipe leak. First leak about over a month ago on the ceiling of dining room. Got it fixed and still keeping the bad section of the pipe, still not patch the drywall. Just last weak I realized there has been a damp area outside of the home right behind where water heater and main water line are. I asked in my neighborhood's group chat and there was one that had that same exact problem. That owner gave me her plumber phone number and I called, he knew exactly what the problem is and tell me to file a claim with Uponor. At this point I am really stressful while reading all the comments here. Should I still have the plumber out, cut some drywall and try to find the leak first? This time the leak coming from underground. Not sure what to do now, I saw someone in the Marietta had the same problem, may I know the outcome from Uponor. Did they agree to pay to re-pipe. Thank you.

I would try contacting Uponor first. They will require a section of the failed pipe, but I would try to keep a section of it just in case..

The good thing is that the pipe just tends to leak with pinhole issues and not catastrophically blow out, so you have some time to figure this out. One thing I know is that regardless of the outcome with Uponor, I would not leave *my* house for a few days without shutting off the main until the house was repiped (with something other than Uponor).

John

 

[kvguy81]

Uponor claim is the way to go. They are to only simple way to get covered without stress. They will send crew to fix leaks and patch. I am often in touch with Uponor rep (yesterday actually) but they are telling customers to file direct claims with Uponor.

Thank you so much for you response. What option should I choose in the beginning. choose to give the bad section pipe or not (and claim will be denied). Thank you.

 

[kvguy81]

I would try contacting Uponor first. They will require a section of the failed pipe, but I would try to keep a section of it just in case..

The good thing is that the pipe just tends to leak with pinhole issues and not catastrophically blow out, so you have some time to figure this out. One thing I know is that regardless of the outcome with Uponor, I would not leave *my* house for a few days without shutting off the main until the house was repiped (with something other than Uponor).

John

Thank you so much for you response. What option should I choose in the beginning. choose to give the bad section pipe or not (and claim will be denied). Thank you.

 

[kvguy81]

Which one should I choose. Thank you

Customer acknowledges and agrees that any products or samples submitted by Customer to Uponor as part of Customer’s warranty claim will be subject to a root cause analysis inspection and assessment conducted by Uponor in its sole discretion, which assessment may include destructive testing.

Customer has declined destructive testing of products or samples submitted by Customer as part of its warranty claim. Uponor will conduct a limited visual inspection of the products or samples, but is unlikely to determine the root cause of the product failure. Customer acknowledges and agrees that if the visual inspection results in an inconclusive root cause analysis, Customer’s warranty claim will not be accepted.

 

[Breplum]

Destructive testing.