Upgrading to large capacity Water Softener; should we upgrade plumbing and or Pressure tank as well?

[Asker123]

Hello,
We are on Well Water. We are upgrading our 50 years old softener to a newer flack control valve based system where resin capacity is 2.5 cubic feet. We have already bought this so no turning back on this ..right or wrong. our well water hardness is crazy 58 grains per gallon and we thought a good softener system with decent capacity is way to go.

The current system has Well to Pressure tank then to iron remover then to softener and then to house plumbing. Only the Well to Pressure tank seems a large Poly kind of pipe approx 1 1/2 or may be 2 inch diameter but then after the pressure tank , every thing is 1/2 inch copper.

The pressure tank is set to 40/60 psi setting . Its is written on the tank that on this setting it provides 5 gallons per minute draw-down.

In the new setup both the iron remover ( approx 0.75 or may be 0.5 cubic feet) and the old softener ( approx 1 cubic feet) are being replaced by a single cylinder 2.5 cubic feet fancy new softener.

When we bought this softener we were told that 1/2 inch pipe coming from pressure tank to the softener might be an issue for effective regeneration of this new larger softener so we should think to upgrade to 3/4 inch pipe.

We wanted to take your opinion that changing the pipe from pressure tank to softener from 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch will not cause any other issue for any other component of my system like pressure tank or well pump etc.

Then what about output of the softener? We currently have that as 1/2 inch and not thinking to change it. Just a connector to convert 3.4 inch softener output to 1/2 inch and connect to existing pipe.

Any suggestions are welcome. Thanks in advance

Edit : Added problem of pressure tank after some observation. Pump seems to run only for 5 seconds at a time from 40 psi to 60 psi and a shower bring down 60 to 40 in 1 minute 25 seconds.

 

[Reach4]

If it is not too difficult, I would upgrade. If the input to the softener is 1 inch, then you might even want to go to one inch.

Its is written on the tank that on this setting it provides 5 gallons per minute draw-down.

Draw down is in gallons, -- not GPM.

If you change out that tank some day, you will probably want to go to a bigger tank. You would like to have the pump run a minimum of one minute, or close enough to that. So your current 20 gallon tank would be upgraded to at least 32 gallon. 32 gallon is usually the largest that has a 1 inch connection instead of 1-1/4. 44 gallons would be better, however, unless you add a CSV in-- which works well with small tanks.

But anyway, if you do route new pipe, consider that your next pressure tank may be larger.

Congratulations on the long life of the earlier softener. The new one will consume less salt due to its demand metering.

 

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[MaxBlack]

Just posting cuz 58gpg ain't nuthin'. Our water in TX was like Mother's Milk, 120gpg. For the short time we ran a Water Softener we were using a couple/three bags of salt per week. Then we switched to rainwater collection. But I digress.

Also in TX we had an outside water system, subject to freezing. Maybe in this modern age of poly pipe you should upgrade just to get rid of the relatively fragile copper.

We did a huge addition recently and the plumber showed me how he would expand the pipe (plastic tubing actually) with an expansion tool and then place the fittings and the pipe regained its shape, forever holding the fittings tight and waterproof. He and others have said they've seen this pipe expand like a balloon and it still would not crack or break or leak, and when the problem was resolved it would regain its shape. "Good as new." To me it seems magical.

 

[Asker123]

If it is not too difficult, I would upgrade. If the input to the softener is 1 inch, then you might even want to go to one inch.

Draw down is in gallons, -- not GPM.

If you change out that tank some day, you will probably want to go to a bigger tank. You would like to have the pump run a minimum of one minute, or close enough to that. So your current 20 gallon tank would be upgraded to at least 32 gallon. 32 gallon is usually the largest that has a 1 inch connection instead of 1-1/4. 44 gallons would be better, however, unless you add a CSV in-- which works well with small tanks.

But anyway, if you do route new pipe, consider that your next pressure tank may be larger.

Congratulations on the long life of the earlier softener. The new one will consume less salt due to its demand metering.

Thank you.
Softer has 1 inch male threads both in and out. I was not sure about changing the current 1/2 inch to 1 inch from pressure tank to the softner so I ordered 1 inch female to 3/4 inch push to connect flexible connector. I am told it's not good to connect the pipes directly to the softner. I will need to buy a 1 inch female to 1 inch push to connect adaptor if I want to upgrade to 1 inch. I can do it if it offers a major advantage?
Please note on the output side, I will reduce from 1 inch to 1/2 inch. I am in no state to change my house plumbing which is 1/2 inch.
What do you think.

 

[Reach4]

These are nice: https://www.plumbingsupply.com/flexes.html if you want flex input. I would avoid braided flex lines.

However copper pipes or pex pipes directly can be good. Anything that will not keep stress.

On the output side, you might consider connecting to a tee. Feed the house with the straight thru part, and use the side port for future uses.

What kind of pipe are you running?

A backwashing iron filter can use some fairly big GPM. I hope you don't run 1/2 into a backwashing iron filter.

 

[Asker123]

We just bought this house 3 months ago and indeed 1/2 inch is going from pressure tank to the iron filter and then from iron filter to water softener.
Seems like our pressure tank is not speced either.
Yesterday I did a reading of pressure gauge which is attached at the output of pressure tank right before that 1 inch or so output is reduced to 1/2 inch to take into iron filter.
Son was in the shower in the basement bathroom ( same level as pressure tank, softener etc)
Pressure drops from 60 to 40 in about 1 minute and 25 seconds and then a click sound happens and then pressure reach from 40 back to 60 in approx 5 seconds and then another click and pressure starts coming down. With a continuous shower running this happened 4 times before shower was over.
Does that mean my pump is only running for 5 seconds at a time? Thats bad for pump right? We are not a heavy water user and seems like neither were the previous owners so the pump survived but at this rate not sure how long it will last. Our softener and iron remover must be drawing huge amount of water for backwash and making this 5 second pump running a lot of times.

I am worried now. What are my options here. This 2.5 cubic feet softener is going to kill the pump for sure.

 

[Reach4]

n the new setup both the iron remover ( approx 0.75 or may be 0.5 cubic feet) and the old softener ( approx 1 cubic feet) are being replaced by a single cylinder 2.5 cubic feet fancy new softener.

I had failed to read that earlier. So the dedicated iron filter is gone?

To treat iron with a softener will need some extra care including some acid, such as citric acid, Rescare, or Iron Out to the salt/brine.

But on the other hand, a softener takes less backwash gpm than most backwashing iron filters. 5 gpm is low for an iron filter backwash and high for a home softener. 1/2 inch pipe can deliver 5 gpm.

Son was in the shower in the basement bathroom ( same level as pressure tank, softener etc)
Pressure drops from 60 to 40 in about 1 minute and 25 seconds and then a click sound happens and then pressure reach from 40 back to 60 in approx 5 seconds and then another click and pressure starts coming down. With a continuous shower running this happened 4 times before shower was over.
Does that mean my pump is only running for 5 seconds at a time? Thats bad for pump right?

Yes. How big is your pressure tank? You could post the make and model, or dimensions. There is a good chance it should be replaced. However you could try adjusting the air precharge to see if that improves things a lot. With a 40/60 psi submersible system, you normally set the air precharge to 38 psi. Air precharge is always set and checked with the water pressure zero. When checking air precharge, it is also a good idea to flush the tank of sediment, which is really just draining thru the drain valve several times until sediment stops coming out. I have a writeup on that.

There is an alternative to a big tank with a CSV and a smaller tank. It throttles the pump to match the load by applying backpressure.

What kind of pipe runs to the softener, and what kind will you use if you go to a bigger pipe?

 

[Asker123]

Problem Problem....
Unless my tire pressure gauge is broken I seem to be in trouble. Just stopped the pump and then drained all the water as described on the pressure tanks and measured the pressure using my tire pressure gauge on the nipple at the top of the tank and reading is ZERO....
Got scared so just started the pump again and everything seems to be same as before... From 40 PSI on the attached pressure gauge at the output of pressure tank to 60 PSI pump runs for 5 seconds. and then as water gets used comes down to 40 and then fills again.
I do not know what is exact setting on the pressure switch. I am just guessing as the pressure gauge is cutting off at 40 and then 60

 

[Reach4]

The 2145059004 written down as the pump number is actually a number for a 1/2 hp 3-wire Franklin pump motor. The pump end would have a different number.

That means there would be a control box. While your motor starts fine now, I would consider changing out the start capacitor on a non-urgent basis.

Diamond 500104-01 Owner's Manual (Page 5 of 21) | ManualsLib

www.manualslib.com

Your tank should have about a 5 gallon drawdown, which would go along with a 20 gallon tank. It is probable that you should replace the tank, but putting air in can help let the old tank work for a while. Yes, you could try seeing if the tank will maintain 38 psi of air, but tanks fail after a while, and your rapid cycling has probably insured it is failed.

While I would like a 44 gallon tank, a 32 gallon tank would be an upgrade. There are features that are worth a premium if you are looking to shop, or go with what is available which may be an economy model.

 

[Asker123]

Thank you Reach4,
Where you read the pump number that is the sticker on a box which hangs near the switch. Seems like that is control box.
Is there an easy way to find out what pressure setting my switch is set to function?
I can get compressed air put in the tank but how much? if it is 40/60 I should put 38 , if it is 20/40 I should put 18 but how do I know whats my current switch set to?

 

[Reach4]

I can get compressed air put in the tank but how much? if it is 40/60 I should put 38 , if it is 20/40 I should put 18 but how do I know whats my current switch set to?

Start with your first guess, and air up to 38 psi. If that is too much, the symptom is that the pressure will momentarily stutter as the tank runs out of water before the pump gets started. No damage to anything. If that is your symptom, let out some air and try again.

Watch the gauge as the water gets used to see what the pressure is when the pump turns on.

It is possible that you actually have a big enough hole in your diaphragm that you cannot get to 38 psi while the drain valve is open. In that case, close the valve, air up the tank to something... and get shopping as you limp along. If the diaphragm is shot, then the air contacts the water. The water dissolves the air, and you have to keep adding air periodically until you get your new tank put in.

 

[Valveman]

Even with the right air charge that tank will make the pump cycle on/off for every 5 gallons used. Cycling on and off is what destroyed the diaphragm in the tank you have. A 44 gallon tank only holds 10 gallons. If you want a real upgrade switch to the Cycle Stop Valve system as mentioned. The PK1A only has a 4.5 gallon size tank, but the CSV will give you strong constant 50 PSI for as long as the shower is on, no cycling. This will be much better for the pump and will make shower pressure so strong you will no longer even need soap.

 

[Asker123]

@valveman - Some reviews of CSV mentioned that it creates backpressure that puts load on plumbing, pipes and even pump etc. What are your opinion on that?

@Reach4 - just finished putting the pressure in the tank to 38PSI using a bicycle pump . With the drain valve open , seems like it is holding the pressure. Then will start the pump and update. As I mentioned I do not know what my pressure switch setting is . Hopefully it is 40/60 because hte gauge installed at the putput of the pump cycles between 40 and approx 60. Lets see if charging the tank can get rid of my pump only running for 5 seconds at a time. Even if I can make it reach 30 seconds, I will be happy. Will test and report back

 

[Valveman]

30 seconds isn't long enough either. One minute is minimum, two minutes run time is better, and running continuously when using water like a CSV will do is the best thing you can do for your pump. You are reading the reviews on "A". Lol! Yeah "A" will not remove the CSV page I made after I stopped doing business there. They also put the only two bad reviews right on top because I no longer do business with them. Just one of many reasons to not doing any business with "A" as they are the most Un-American company there is.

If you want to believe a couple of bad reviews instead of the thousands of good reviews for Cycle Stop Valves then you will never have good strong constant pressure and a pump system that will last several times longer than normal. Those bad reviews are not even applicable, as those people can't read instructions and wouldn't know a good pump system from a bad one anyway. Here are some reviews from hundreds of people who know what they are talking about. https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/reviews

The CSV is such a perfect pump control that pump manufacturers blacklisted it in 1994. It makes pumps last longer, uses smaller pressure tanks, and delivers strong constant pressure to the showers. The bladder in your tank is probably already broken from all the cycling. If your installer had installed a Cycle Stop Valve to begin with, you would not be having a problem now. You wouldn't even know you have a pump, as strong constant pressure water would just keep coming out the faucets with no problems or added expense for 30 years. See why pump companies don't like Cycle Stop Valves and why the installer didn't put one at that house to start with?

Back pressure is a good thing. But they use that word to scare you away from something that would save you many thousands of dollars and many days of no water over the years to come.

 

[Valveman]

Since I am on my soapbox already... Lol! I just looked and we sell to 543 pump, plumbing, and irrigation wholesale distributors or supply houses in the US and other places. I won't mention any names, but these include distributors for all the most common and well known brands of pumps and many not so common. When one of their installers can't make a pump work or last using a big pressure tank, Variable Frequency Drive (VFD), or one of many pump control gadgets on the market, they finally mention a Cycle Stop Valve and it always solves the problem. I understand the reluctance to mention a CSV. If they started off with a Cycle Stop Valve these companies would rarely get to sell a big pressure tank, VFD, or even get to replace the pump in the planned amount of time.

It is actually funny that many people think a valve will hurt a pump, when just the opposite is true. The back pressure does need to be figured. But even if the back pressure is excessive, the problem is the pump is way oversized, not that the CSV hurts anything. Even building more backpressure than the pipe or CSV can handle won't hurt the pump. That is what pumps are made to do. Pumps that are made for deep wells just have to make more backpressure than one going in a shallow well. And you don't want to put a pump made for a really deep well in a shallow well, as that is what causes more back pressure than the pipe or CSV can handle. Just look at the max pressure your pump can build, as all sizes of pumps build different amounts of back pressure.

 

[Asker123]

Hi there,
I pre charged the Tank with 38 PSI and it seems to be working. The 5 seconds running of pump in a single run increased to 18 seconds in a 40/60 setting. while shower is running, getting from 60 to 40 PSI ia taking over 4 minutes compared to previous 1 and half minute.
So there is an improvement . May be not enough but I think I can concentrate now back to my original problem. That is hooking up the new high capacity ( 2.5 cubic feet) softerner.

Raach4 or any one else - What benefit I will get by upgrading to 1 inch between pressure tank and softener compared to upgrading to 3/4 inch? For the output of the softener , I am going to reduce from 1 inch to 1/2 inch as my current whole house pluming is 1/2 inch?

 

[Taylorjm]

Just to give you an idea, we have a similar system with 60gpg hardness and a 1/2hp franklin pump. Installed a 72,000 grain softener and replaced the pressure tank. Had a 20 gallon and like you, would cycle on and off quite a bit. Went with an 84 gallon pressure tank. (It's a monster compared to the old 20 gallon) Now, with the 40/60 switch, it takes 90 seconds for the pump to take the tank from 40psi to 60psi. The 20gal tank had about 5gal drawdown, the new one has about 23 gallons.

 

[Reach4]

What benefit I will get by upgrading to 1 inch between pressure tank and softener compared to upgrading to 3/4 inch? For the output of the softener , I am going to reduce from 1 inch to 1/2 inch as my current whole house pluming is 1/2 inch?

Pressure drops add. The point is that the available flow is not completely limited by the smallest pipe as it might be with road traffic.
If you are running new pipe, you might as well increase the new stuff to the size it should have been in the first place.

So anyway, if you are asking how many psi a length of 1/2 inch pipe will drop more than a similar length of 3/4 inch, I could point you to a pressure drop calculator.

 

[Valveman]

The insert fittings in 1/2" Pex won't let much water through. 3/4 isn't much better. Any type pipe that doesn't have the insert fittings will let more water through. I would use 1" to the softener as they need good flow to back wash.

With the friction loss of a softener and small pipe going to the house, when the pressure tank is draining from 60 to 40 PSI, the pressure in the shower will be dropping from 40 to 20 PSI or even lower. You can switch to a monster tank and have longer periods of decreasing pressure, or you can add a CSV1A to the tank you have. After waiting four minutes in the shower for the tank to drain, you will feel the strong constant 50 PSI from the CSV after the pump starts. With a 4.5 gallon size tank there is no waiting for strong constant pressure. The sooner you get constant pressure the better, so the smaller tank is best.

 

[Taylorjm]

The insert fittings in 1/2" Pex won't let much water through. 3/4 isn't much better. Any type pipe that doesn't have the insert fittings will let more water through. I would use 1" to the softener as they need good flow to back wash.

With the friction loss of a softener and small pipe going to the house, when the pressure tank is draining from 60 to 40 PSI, the pressure in the shower will be dropping from 40 to 20 PSI or even lower. You can switch to a monster tank and have longer periods of decreasing pressure, or you can add a CSV1A to the tank you have. After waiting four minutes in the shower for the tank to drain, you will feel the strong constant 50 PSI from the CSV after the pump starts. With a 4.5 gallon size tank there is no waiting for strong constant pressure. The sooner you get constant pressure the better, so the smaller tank is best.

I've never noticed any difference in the shower between 40 or 60psi. I can't tell when the pump kicks on so constant pressure wouldn't make any difference to me.