Underneath toilet still leaking after new toilet

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April2

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Old toilet leaking underneath so had someone install new one. I posted about this before but this is new post about since. Ok so he took up old toilet. Had to chisel around the toilet cause tile was laid against base not underneath. New toilet base larger than previous toilet so instead of breaking more tile decided to put on top of surrounding tile so this lifts toilet higher right? Says used thick wax ring to make up for diff but there is still a leak. I put paper towel in slot where ceramic missing and it siphons water(see pics). The new toilet has about a 1” rim at base and flange is about a little over 1/4” recessed below tile. Do you think a thick wax ring(with plastic in middle) was enough or do we need 2. Maybe 2 regular or a thick and a regular? Or should we just break more tile and sit toilet in spot previous toilet was for better seal. Paper towel shows some color yellow on it when wet(it’s not pee lol) I thot maybe wall pipe leak but two people checked meter said nothing running. Suggestions? Flange looked ok no wiggle. Also I didn’t use toilet all night( don’t ask me how I did that) and there was still water on paper towel. Not a lot but I’m not sure if that was just slurping up water still sitting in that recessed area. I also tried to monitor the bowl to see if losing water but I didn’t notice it was ( though maybe crack in bowl). Im at a loss. This guy says he’ll come back if needed. I’m just trying to get insight. Also tried color water test in bowl but not seeing that, but Idk how much dissolved color would show up in that small or leak since seems water all flushes down very quickly. Help please. Ty. In pic- is that a thick wax ring?
 

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Reach4

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What is the height of the closet flange vs the surface of the floor? Where the ring is not above the floor level, I think Terry stacks two rings. The upper one has a plastic "horn".

Also, maybe tie a paper towel on the supply line near where it enters the tank, and also check for leakage though bottom of the tank along the bolts that tie the tank to to the base.
 

Sarg

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Perhaps a Fernco seal is a remedy ?
 

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April2

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Ty reach4. I checked all connections for wetness. And see none. The wetness I see is only coming thru on paper towels when stuck thru opening- reaching I believe to the wax ring area. (See pic above). At 10:50 flushed it 3xs and now it’s 11:39 and there is a little seepish on paper towels. Does it take time for wax seal to truly seal? I know I read something need to soak in warm water first. Need to be 70 degrees? I haven’t sat on toilet since last night either for pressure. The flange is very minimal above concrete floor level ( see pic above- though prob hard to tell). I was trying to be not nosed and nosey at same time when he was here.
 

Terry

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Sitting the new bowl on top of the tile floor is always the way to go.
A flange 1/4" lower than finished flooring means a thick wax ring or two rings stacked.
Are you sure the concrete floor was dry before the new bowl was set. I would wait a couple of days to see if things dry out. Maybe put a fan there to evaporate left over moisture.
If the bowl sits flat and doesn't rock, you should be okay.

When they are really deep, I will use an extension, with spacers below to bring it up to a good height.

neorest-install-03.jpg
 
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April2

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Ty Terry, it looked dry. Those pics above were taken few minutes after toilet removed but I suppose just because looks dry doesn’t necessarily mean so. Also can you tell if that ring in pic above is a thick one? I will try fan and toilet seems flat and not rocking.
 

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Ty Terry, it looked dry. Those pics above were taken few minutes after toilet removed but I suppose just because looks dry doesn’t necessarily mean so. Also can you tell if that ring in pic above is a thick one? I will try fan and toilet seems flat and not rocking.

I don't have the right angle to tell, though it could be the thick wax. I would give it a day or two.
 

April2

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K. Please know that I appreciate everyone’s help on this. I’m so stressed about this. ( you don’t want to live in my head lol) and getting feedback from you all helps. I’m trying to look at all the things in my life that are working well instead of this one thing that’s not. Seems to help.
 

Sarg

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Remember Rule #1 - If it doesn't change supper .... it's not worth any serious worry.
 

April2

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The installer coming tomorrow to see. By looking at the flange above, do you think he should have done more scraping to get old wax off and may be that's why not good seal. He wiped up all the chipped ceramic but I watched and he didn't scrape anything. To me it looks pretty cruddy. These are clearer pics

20210225_122245.jpg
20210225_122232.jpg
 
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April2

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Is there a brand of wax rings you guys find better than other i.e. Fluid master vs johni-ring vs Oatey, vs ace hardware?
 

wjcandee

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Hey, April2. Dollars to donuts this isn't going to be a wax ring issue.

Like the situation with another person in the past few days, if there's a leak under the toilet, it's very rarely a wax ring issue because that's not the purpose of the wax ring. The wax ring is there primarily to seal against sewer gas, and secondarily against splashes. It's not there to make a pressure-tight water seal, it's there to make a gas-tight seal. Big difference. Your obsession about the type and size and shape of the wax ring is, I think, misplaced.

You have apparently already replaced the entire toilet, so I guess (although it's not definite) that there isn't a crack in your toilet's porcelain bowl.

So, if there's water on the floor, it's coming either: (1) from a water backup in the drain pipe which is overflowing and breaching the wax ring "seal"; (2) from a leak of fresh water between the tank and bowl or around the fill valve, fill line, or wall spigot; or (3) from somewhere totally-unconnected to the toilet. Or it's not a leak at all but rather water that was hiding somewhere under the tiles or something and will be dried out in a day or two.

If it's just dribbles that you're seeing under the bowl/base, I would check the underside of the tank-to-bowl bolts and see if the threads aren't wet because of the way whomever installed the bolts. That could give you a bit of a drip-drip-drip down the bolts, through the hole that they go through in the base, and onto the floor "inside" the confines of the toilet that would make wet-ish the area that you're sticking the paper towels into. Some handy-hacks put the metal washer inside the tank, rather than outside on the underside of it, which can lead to drips. It should be (in virtually-all toilets, with one exception I can think of that you don't have) bolt- head/rubber washer/tank porcelain/metal washer/nut, then base porcelain/metal washer/nut. If you're not double-nutting, then you eliminate the metal washer and nut under the tank. But in all cases, the rubber washer alone goes in the tank. Just a guess.

Finding the solution may just be a matter of pulling your gaze back a bit. Water moves to the lowest spot. I had a client who had a couple thousand gallons of water spill on like the 25th floor of his apartment building. Some time later, it started coming out of the ceiling in the lobby. Sneaky stuff, water.

Good luck! Keep letting us know how it's going, and what the resolution is when you get it all fixed.
 
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April2

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Hey, April2. Dollars to donuts this isn't going to be a wax ring issue.

Like the situation with another person in the past few days, if there's a leak under the toilet, it's very rarely a wax ring issue because that's not the purpose of the wax ring. The wax ring is there primarily to seal against sewer gas, and secondarily against splashes. It's not there to make a pressure-tight water seal, it's there to make a gas-tight seal. Big difference. Your obsession about the type and size and shape of the wax ring is, I think, misplaced.

You have apparently already replaced the entire toilet, so I guess (although it's not definite) that there isn't a crack in your toilet's porcelain bowl.

So, if there's water on the floor, it's coming either: (1) from a water backup in the drain pipe which is overflowing and breaching the wax ring "seal"; (2) from a leak of fresh water between the tank and bowl or around the fill valve, fill line, or wall spigot; or (3) from somewhere totally-unconnected to the toilet. Or it's not a leak at all but rather water that was hiding somewhere under the tiles or something and will be dried out in a day or two.

If it's just dribbles that you're seeing under the bowl/base, I would check the underside of the tank-to-bowl bolts and see if the threads aren't wet because of the way whomever installed the bolts. That could give you a bit of a drip-drip-drip down the bolts, through the hole that they go through in the base, and onto the floor "inside" the confines of the toilet that would make wet-ish the area that you're sticking the paper towels into. Some handy-hacks put the metal washer inside the tank, rather than outside on the underside of it, which can lead to drips. It should be (in virtually-all toilets, with one exception I can think of that you don't have) bolt- head/rubber washer/tank porcelain/metal washer/nut, then base porcelain/metal washer/nut. If you're not double-nutting, then you eliminate the metal washer and nut under the tank. But in all cases, the rubber washer alone goes in the tank. Just a guess.

Finding the solution may just be a matter of pulling your gaze back a bit. Water moves to the lowest spot. I had a client who had a couple thousand gallons of water spill on like the 25th floor of his apartment building. Some time later, it started coming out of the ceiling in the lobby. Sneaky stuff, water.

Good luck! Keep letting us know how it's going, and what the resolution is when you get it all fixed.
Ty wjcandd. You explained everything well btw. I checked the tank to bowl connection and bolts. The metal washer is on the outside. I don't see or feel any water draining or dripping anywhere above bowl. I look thru the right base bolt hole and can see wax squished around it. The other side hard to see anything. When I take paper towels out the wetness is combined with the wax coloring too. I'm trying the food coloring test again in the bowl but with a deep deep green and I will wait to flush for awhile to see if maybe a leak in new bowl. I did this with old toilet cause wasn't sure where water coming from(wall pipe leak going under tile or the toilet) and eventually the leak started showing with the dye color. Yes sneaky stuff water, it took awhile to see color. I appreciate your explanation re wax ring, I guess I'm obsessed because I read of other peeps having problems and they change or add ring and problem solved.
 

wjcandee

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I appreciate your explanation re wax ring, I guess I'm obsessed because I read of other peeps having problems and they change or add ring and problem solved.

Sounds like you're doing a good job working the problem. And here's hoping it can be something simple -- even the wax ring! This is a thread I will keep watching because I do want to know how it turns out!
 

April2

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Wjcandee i was wondering do all toilets have the same size toilet base horn meaning do some stick out further or are some with a shorter horn because if that were the case and since this toilet is on top of tile now and not on the floor and there is prob at least a 1/4” or more recessed area to where the closet flange is - could it be possible the base horn is not sitting exactly in the donut part of the wax ring, maybe it’s barely at edge and so would be the need for 2 rings or an extra thick one if that one that was put on now is not an extra thick one? One other ? If it was a drain back up overflow breaching the “seal” and being the water leak I’m seeing then why couldn’t it be water going down toilet bowl to drain that is breaching the “seal”? Forgive me if I’m wondering bout this, I’m just picturing these scenarios in my mind and wondering why the leak wouldn’t be from either way. Ty
 

PlumbNuts

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From what I can tell from your pictures it appears that your flange is considerably lower than the tile and that your installer used an extra wax with horn wax seal, I still do not think it is thick enough to provide the proper seal.
At minimum I would add a second wax ring "stacked" as Reach4 suggested earlier.

I am glad to see that you did get the toilet replaced and it was not the nightmare that you were anticipating; this issue is relatively minor so don't sweat it too bad. I am sure your installer will get it set properly with your guidance.
 
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April2

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And then here is another question. What happens to a wax ring while it’s in there. Since I believe these paper towels are touching the wax ring is it just collecting moisture from the wax ring cause the coloring on it(see pic) i put paper towels at front of toilet where there is openings due to chiseling of ceramic and they come out dry so i know there isnt a whole lot of water down there. Most people arent sliding paper towels down under toilet base unless they see leaking and the only reason i started doing that was because after toilet installed i went in bathroom to do cleanup and while doing it- there was water coming up thru tile like before, not even thinking it was still remaining water from previous toilet leak, i just assumed it was the new toilet, so started sticking paper towels in the opening at base to see. Since then all that tile water has dried up but im still sticking these paper towels in there to see whats happening. Most people dont have the opportunity to do this. The paper towels arent sopping with water, i was just wondering if they kind of stay a little moist. Cause dont they say wax rings will start leaking cause they get old, and dry. (Thot i read that) heres pic of what is was overnight from 9pm til 7am. No flushing during. That yellow on there is wax coloring or is it from the new brass bolts, they were pretty yellow. There was green dye in bowl so if bowl has crack why wouldnt i see green in leakage from overnight. Two plumbers checked meter and saw no movement when water off so assuming no leak plus this leak is nothing compared to leak i had before toilet replaced.
20210227_065130.jpg

Wjcandee i was wondering do all toilets have the same size toilet base horn meaning do some stick out further or are some with a shorter horn because if that were the case and since this toilet is on top of tile now and not on the floor and there is prob at least a 1/4” or more recessed area to where the closet flange is - could it be possible the base horn is not sitting exactly in the donut part of the wax ring, maybe it’s barely at edge and so would be the need for 2 rings or an extra thick one if that one that was put on now is not an extra thick one? One other ? If it was a drain back up overflow breaching the “seal” and being the water leak I’m seeing then why couldn’t it be water going down toilet bowl to drain that is breaching the “seal”? Forgive me if I’m wondering bout this, I’m just picturing these scenarios in my mind and wondering why the leak wouldn’t be from either way. Ty
From what I can tell from your pictures it appears that your flange is considerably lower than the tile and that your installer used an extra wax with horn wax seal, I still do not think it is thick enough to provide the proper seal.
At minimum I would add a second wax ring "stacked" as Reach4 suggested earlier.

I am glad to see that you did get the toilet replaced and it was not the nightmare that you were anticipating; this issue is relatively minor so don't sweat it too bad. I am sure your installer will get it set properly with your guidance.
 
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