Ultramax II fill valve issue (water hammer type behavior)...

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Derek87

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so, i just had a Toto Ultramax II (1.28 gpf) installed today. it went smoothly but when the installer turned everything on, he/we noticed that when the filling of the tank was just completed, the fill valve would make "tut-tut-tut" sound...sort of a mini-water hammer sort of behavior. he said he had never seen that ever in his 10-15 years of installing Totos.

he is going to have a "toto expert" to come look at it and diagnose the problem in the coming week, but i wanted to ask the collective folks if they have ever seen/heard something like this happen before.

he speculated that the toto valve may be a bit particular about what kind of valve it's hooked up to (see link below) and he wondered if it was somehow interacting in a odd way with the plastic valve the builders installed in our baths.

here's the type of water supply valve in our bathroom(s):

http://www.accortechnology.com

the toilet works (haven't tried for any real use yet) but i'm hoping there is a simple explanation or fix. although having the fill valve malfunction brand new does give me moment for concern about Toto quality. (of course, i acknowledge there could be something amiss with the water supply valve. yet, i've never had a problem with that with our prior toilet and minor repairs i've done that required turning it on and off)
 

Jadnashua

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Toto uses a couple of different manufacturers for their fill valves, but the more common one is made for them by Korky. I've found that those are quiet, at least in the ones I've owned or used. If yours has an adjustment screw on the top, it's not the Korky Quietfill valve.

Two things I'd check first, though....make sure that the hose to the overflow is properly clipped to the overflow pipe. If it is loose or directing some flow into the tank, it can create waves and the fill valve will be going up and down and you might get that effect; second thing - check your water pressure. If the incoming water pressure is above the plumbing code maximum (typically, if it is greater than 80psi, it should be regulated down - most people end up with around 40-50psi, but some like it higher), that can sometimes cause it. It's not a Toto issue, that's a generic issue.
 

Derek87

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thanks for the prompt reply.
Toto uses a couple of different manufacturers for their fill valves, but the more common one is made for them by Korky. I've found that those are quiet, at least in the ones I've owned or used. If yours has an adjustment screw on the top, it's not the Korky Quietfill valve.

Two things I'd check first, though....make sure that the hose to the overflow is properly clipped to the overflow pipe. If it is loose or directing some flow into the tank, it can create waves and the fill valve will be going up and down and you might get that effect; second thing - check your water pressure. If the incoming water pressure is above the plumbing code maximum (typically, if it is greater than 80psi, it should be regulated down - most people end up with around 40-50psi, but some like it higher), that can sometimes cause it. It's not a Toto issue, that's a generic issue.

thanks for the prompt reply and thoughts:

- there is a screw on top (green cover but hole to adjust) so i guess it's not a Korky
- hose is clipped
- i don't know the pressure of our water (will probably have that tested/checked if i don't get a satisfactory solution with the Toto guy), but never had a problem with the older toilet or had any sort of water hammer of any sorts in any other water "appliances" in the house.
 

Jadnashua

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Checking the water pressure in the house is fairly easy and inexpensive. Go to either a plumbing supply house, or one of the big box stores and pick up a water pressure gauge with a second, peak reading tattle tale hand with a hose connection on it. Hook it up to say the washing machine supply overnight or better yet for a full day, note your instantaneous water pressure, and after it's been sitting there, whatever peak reading it may have had. If the static pressure is over 80psi, you need an expansion tank and a PRV. If it does peak over 80psi, you may need an expansion tank. High water pressure can cause some of this. Also, make sure that the valve to the toilet is fully opened. If there is any crud in the line, as water flows, it can bounce around and cause this. That can happen with a new install. That particular valve has an inlet filter that can be removed and cleaned. YOu might try removing the hose from the inlet, then turning the valve on and running it into a bucket to see if you flush out anything.
Watts water pressure gauge.jpg
 
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Derek87

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Checking the water pressure in the house is fairly easy and inexpensive. Go to either a plumbing supply house, or one of the big box stores and pick up a water pressure gauge with a second, peak reading tattle tale hand with a hose connection on it. Hook it up to say the washing machine supply overnight or better yet for a full day, note your instantaneous water pressure, and after it's been sitting there, whatever peak reading it may have had. If the static pressure is over 80psi, you need an expansion tank and a PRV. If it does peak over 80psi, you may need an expansion tank. High water pressure can cause some of this. Also, make sure that the valve to the toilet is fully opened. If there is any crud in the line, as water flows, it can bounce around and cause this. That can happen with a new install. That particular valve has an inlet filter that can be removed and cleaned. YOu might try removing the hose from the inlet, then turning the valve on and running it into a bucket to see if you flush out anything.View attachment 27996

jim - good thoughts. i probably should check our water pressure for other reasons.

we live in a town home without any water spigots outside, so its good that you mentioned using the laundry as an easy way to check pressure. [our place is 8+ years old and it has this strange tubing distribution system that starts in the garage...i could also probably check pressure on one of those extra taps, too)

your suggestion about debris is somewhat prophetic. since i last wrote, i used the toilet and noticed that the problem is basically gone. it shuts off with a significant "thud" which would indicate pressure issues, but it definitely sounds more normal to me and i probably wouldn't have thought anything of it if it had behaved like that after installed.

i'll keep an ear on it and see how it goes. (i'm reluctant to do too many test flushes right now since we are in a massive drought in CA, so i'll just pay attention to each flusin the days ahead.) i may end up canceling or not needing that appointment although it might be good to have the Toto tech come up just to make sure everything is running as it is supposed to be, if i can arrange a convenient appointment.
 
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Jadnashua

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IF your pressure is in the okay range, you can pick up a water hammer arrester and install it at the supply valve to the toilet. Does the supply hose jump when the valve turns off? The Korky valve shuts off a little smoother, which, generally stops that. Call Toto, if your water pressure is okay, they may send you one for free.
 

WJcandee

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If it's new and your guy is willing to make it right, great. If you continue to have problems with the fill valve, get Toto to send you a TSU99A.X universal fill valve, which they will do for free if you call under warranty. 888 295-8134. It's a 10 minute job to change the fill valve, even for a first timer.
 

Derek87

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you guys are awesome and so prompt and helpful. more follow-ups:

- the "tut tut tut" seems to be gone now and replaced with a solid "clunk" that i think my older third party fill valve had...this is a little louder though.

i think this was what i installed before: http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3013033
it also has little jets that keep the tank clean (not sure its as that great in function, but i was sold on the couple extra bucks spent when i swapped it out a few years ago)

- for comparison, other toilets which use the traditional ball float closes the fill valve smoothly, and there is not clunk or any type of water hammer. also, we don't see any water hammer behavior on any other sinks, showers, tubs. (i will get the pressure tested at some point in the near future, but i'm providing this as a point of reference)

- i will see what the installer (and dealer) does to connect me to the Toto tech, and hopefully i can arrange appointment that isn't too inconvenient. i like the suggestion of calling Toto as a backup, as i do know how to install a fill valve. thanks for the suggestion.

- aside: some good news (TMI alert): i had a significant #2 that would have surely clogged the old Sterling toilet the builder installed. the Toto took it away without any effort. i tried to refrain from yelling "Toto!" (and drive my wife nuts)
 

WJcandee

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The Hydroclean isn't going to give you the proper refill ratio.

Don't screw around with the fill valve. Put in the TSU99A.X or a Korky 528MP Maxperformance (the silver cap one), which has an adjustable refill percentage. Otherwise, your flush won't work the way it's supposed to.
 

Jadnashua

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Custom fill valves must be calibrated to fill the tank (any one can do that) to the proper level, but it must also fill the bowl to the proper level at exactly the same time otherwise, either the bowl is deficient leading to poor flushing, or you waste water because the bowl can only hold so much, then any more just goes down the drain. A generic valve is unlikely to perform both of those functions. Don't mess with a good thing...use one designed for your toilet.
 

Derek87

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hey guys, thanks for your concerns. i'm sorry if i wasn't clear: i was not implying i would use the Hydroclean as a replacement. i just wanted to note that the Hydroclean was nearly silent when it closed in the old toilet, and moreover, the original fill valves operated with the big balloon float in our other two toilets are perfectly silent when filling completes.

i definitely will want to go with a Toto replacement valve and will calibrate it per instructions given.
 

Derek87

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Ah. Sorry for the misunderstanding. You're on the right track!
no worries.

Toto's distributor is shipping a new fill valve to my dealer, and will have to figure out a time to arrange for another appointment. i'll update you guys once that occurs (hopefully sometime in the next couple weeks but probably not any time in the next few days due to too much busy-ness ;) )
 

Wallijonn

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Question: did he turn on the valve slowly at the toilet, or was the valve completely open and then he went to the house main and turn the water on?

I noticed a particular problem with my house: I have mixing valves on my showers and the kitchen sink. Even in the off position it may allow water to flow through to the opposite pipe. When I turned on my house main I got a leak from my Toto. Once I opened up all the valves in the house (actually the shower water valve) all the air escaped and the Toto stopped leaking. Yeah, crazy, I know.

Because of the mixing valves I installed a ball cock shut off valve on both my cold and hot water pipes at the water heater. Turning on the main and turning off the cold water inlet valve at the water heater caused water to flow out of the hot water inlet from the water heater pipe connection even though all the valves were closed in the house. All it takes is a pin hole for water to seek an outlet. It increased the water pressure exponentially.
 

Derek87

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Question: did he turn on the valve slowly at the toilet, or was the valve completely open and then he went to the house main and turn the water on?

I noticed a particular problem with my house: I have mixing valves on my showers and the kitchen sink. Even in the off position it may allow water to flow through to the opposite pipe. When I turned on my house main I got a leak from my Toto. Once I opened up all the valves in the house (actually the shower water valve) all the air escaped and the Toto stopped leaking. Yeah, crazy, I know.

Because of the mixing valves I installed a ball cock shut off valve on both my cold and hot water pipes at the water heater. Turning on the main and turning off the cold water inlet valve at the water heater caused water to flow out of the hot water inlet from the water heater pipe connection even though all the valves were closed in the house. All it takes is a pin hole for water to seek an outlet. It increased the water pressure exponentially.

thanks for your thoughts.

actually, the valve to our toilet is one of those cheap plastic Accor Tech jobs that the builder installed. so it wasn't a gradual shutting on and off. i do believe the idea of either debris or air causing it to behave oddly initially. but the now solid "thunk" reminiscent of sort of a small water hammer (it not so violent that it makes the hose jump -- forgot to answer that question asked above). so it's more annoying that anything else.

i confirmed that a Korky valve is being sent so that's good news of hopefully giving us the greatest likelihood of resolving this issue and giving us a quieter fill.
 

Derek87

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Update:

our dealer/installer came today with the Universal replacement valve and installed it in 10 minutes. he just left and we now have a quiet and graceful completion of the filling cycle in our Ultramax II. i am so thankful to this forum for confirming my suspicions and leading me to accept nothing less than a quiet fill valve.

aside: after struggling initially to get my installer scheduled (not his fault, but our busy schedule which he eventually accommodated by dropping by on a sunday (his only day off)), i called Toto. they are sending me the official replacement valve for our model which i believe is the TS051 (same as specified by the sticker on the lid). i'll inspect it (to see if its a Korky or Voreto) when i get it next week and keep it as a backup. but if its a Voreto, i would likely bypass it with a Korky should i ever need to replace the current one.
 
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